Interview with Alexander Roitman — famous post-Soviet psychologist, a therapist. The most successful project is considered the second marriage and five children, and even the choice of profession. Working in different countries and on different continents. Loves Russia and Israel. Their main achievement in life Alexander formulates succinctly — "managed to be happy."
— Do you agree that the current generation of 25-, 30 - and even 40-year-old is too childish?
— More likely than not.
To begin, I want to step back and say that I am against tolerance and psychotherapeutic approach, in life position. I really don't like the idea of tolerance
of rampant positivism. On the one hand, I seem to be tolerant, everyone has the opportunity to start to talk to me. But the kind of tolerance and the positivism as the trends that I see around me, I am very concerned about and strain.
I don't believe that the world is a place simple and easy.
I do not believe that human life is necessary to create conditions that are far from natural.
I don't think it is reasonable to raise children in the faith that all will be well, all will end well, we will never die;
parents will be with you forever; that if you study well, you will earn a lot;
what if you earn a lot, you will be happy;
you're going to be happy; that if you live right, nothing bad will happen. All these schemes are bothering me. In my opinion, they are the essence of immaturity
. Because life is more complex than these or any other schemes.It is very important to understand that life is very much dependent on your position, your desires, choice.
But there is no justice.
Predictability and control no.
Not good triumphs over evil, as, indeed, evil and not good wins. They just coexist.
To understand at least the system of criteria of the first, second and third...
That's all about modern immaturity — the naive belief that the world should be fair and good to you.
— And what from a psychological point of view of an adult differs from Infante?
— The position of an adult is based on such categories as responsibility and freedom.
An adult realizes that he physically can make a much wider range of things than told him in childhood.He can really steal, betray, kill, commit the meanness or, in the end, any time can actually die. It is not against the laws of the world. And what he is doing or not doing, due to his choice, desire and attitude, not because he can't.
"I can't help but love the mother!" It's position is highly flawed.
Yes, you can not love mom. You love her because you want to love.
"I can't take care of their children!" Yes, they can. You care about them not because I can not take care of.
You tied, over you are the people and every time you take care of the children, take you hair and your hands are doing something good for kids?
No! You care because you're in a rush to take care of them. This is an important point that separates child from adult.
The child learns because he has to.
Adult works because he wants.
While there are many adult children who work because they believe that they can not work.Adults are aware of such a thing as responsibility. They understand that they are responsible for all your thoughts, feelings, actions, inactions and their consequences. 100%. And the most interesting — they realize that we are responsible for other people's thoughts, feelings, actions, omissions and consequences of the actions of others.
— Is there some formal indicators of adulthood? For example, to live separately from parents? Make at least so many thousands of dollars? Owning your own business?
— If you live on what I earn, and that you are satisfied, happy, gives you a feeling of gratitude...
If you live with those with whom you live, and choose it not because she has to, but rather rejoice and whine about it...
If there is something else in your life besides work and circle those with whom you live that brings you the light and the feeling of gratitude, we can say that you're an adult.
Probably, there are still wise people, who do not need all this stuff to think and bring everything to clever schemes. They know better about such things.
— Back in the old times of our ancestors, the Slavs had real rituals of initiation
through which a boy officially admitted a young man, a young man, the girl — bride of marriageable age.
But now what? What are they, these markers of adulthood? Whether they survived at all?
Yes, rituals are lost. But the events remain.
For example, first period. What could be more initiating experience?
Or wedding. The exchange of rings as a ritual preparation of the contract. I agree, ritualization either not enough or it is very much devalued.
But there are events such as the birth of the first child, which in themselves are so profound that you almost don't need ritualization. Although the child still needs the first time to attach to the breast. This part of the ritual. Mother is a very strong experience.
Women, generally, initiation is easier than for men. It is more physiological.
— It turns out men and women grow up differently?
— Yes, in different ways.The man is about expansion, about movement outside, a woman — the story of the preservation of the filling, about the "inside". Man is cannon fodder, expendable. The woman is a vessel in which is filled the whole genotype of the population, the whole culture and history of the human species.
And associated with this the ways of initiation, that need to look. For men
it is the fear, the death that you leave behind, war, mastery, overcoming, achievement, need to be able to cope. For women
, the life, the preservation of peace, stability, predictability, and fidelity to himself.
At the same time (Jung speaks about it) need to remember about duality, about the presence of the feminine component (anima) in every man and the masculine element (animus) in a woman. Due to this duality, we gain integrity and the wisdom that comes after adulthood. A man must undergo the hero's journey and meet his brutality
Yes, later he will have to assign and female their part. It is no less important.
— Can we say that all men on the path to growing up waiting for the same set of tests?
Or everyone has his own hero's journey?
— I think the testing is more or less same in the post-Soviet space. I got out of the army. My brother got out of the army. My older daughter went through the army. And the rest of my children certainly will be. At least I'm raising sons in the idea that to army to men is necessary, is essential. It is very important to find your man's place.
I don't understand when you say: "the Army should not be cruel!"
The army is not cruel or merciful, it's just an army. The tasks are not polite words, is short enough, the discussion is not very foreseen. It's the army, it is so arranged.
In her other priorities.
When you need to take the high ground to sit and rest — it's not the picture, not from this story. To live through the pain, through weary feet is very important.
It is very important one time is bad to wrap puttees, to run three kilometers, and then remove them together with the skin. This is very useful for men, I think.
In fact, for women is not harmful.
Just the woman other "portyanki". But horror I don't see any.DLa pain in our lives, no less than for joy, and for evil no less than for good.
Events in my life that made me who I am today,my initiation — it was a tough loss.
It was, of course, the army. Two years of service in Khabarovsk, when I have not seen anyone from the family. Then the construction team near Belgrade, where I was the commander. My hands fell 33 women and four men.
The men were normal, women, in principle, too.
But to get them to do what you want, and do what you don't need...
And even the cons were around, they just there was serving "chemistry." And our construction team was called Khimik. Prisoners came and laughed wildly. We worked hard and it was really difficult.
Then, I worked as the Director of the school. It was also hard. Around were adult teachers who have been in school my whole life, and I came Director with piping hot. Heavy meeting.
The first divorce. The need to feed my family. After the first marriage I was earning almost twice more over a month and a half. After two years ago I threw a partner in $100 thousand, I also began to earn much more. After my divorce, I began to build other relationships with women. These events taught me to look differently at the world.I made losses acquisitions. The greater loss was the biggest for me was become.
In some children we are told that it's bad to lie. But there comes a point when you realize that lying is not good and not bad.
I remember, about 12 years old my mother told me that you can lie to teachers, lie to their parents.
"Of course, I will not be happy if you lie to me. But you're doing it, ' said my mother. — You can lie to your friends. However, then it is not clear why you are friends, if they have to lie. You can lie even to himself, but this is stupid." It was an important moment for me, a kind of initiation.Up to a certain age, people believe in absolute good and evil.
When you get older, you no longer need such a structured description of reality.
You realize that there is in the universe neither good nor evil.
There is a law of gravity, the second law of thermodynamics, the first law of Newton, Boltzmann constant, and good and evil is not. The laws of physics — Yes, there is, and there is no justice
. Not provided. But to come to it, desired not even one initiation, but many.
As a young child supposed to know: fingers in the socket not to stick! Why? Why not. Sunet — kill. What is kill? You'll see.
Or across the street without an adult are not moving. Why? Why not. Standing on the sidewalk, and then the ears get.
Not familiar with strange men on the street. Why? Why not. You don't. If someone with you starts talking, turn my back and go to the mother. But if mom's gone, shouting: "Depart from me!" For up to 3 years roll, for 17, bad. By the age of 40 can, of course, to obey and believe, but usually this is a bad sign.
— Yes, I can go call a few friends of 40-year-old men, great intellectuals, who live with their mother and very proud of my mind...
Who said that adulthood has at least some relation to the mind? A person may be an IQ of 145, he can be a great mathematician and a very immature person. Or, on the contrary, it can be four times Forrest Gump and Mature enough for adults, aware and even wise.
In my opinion, the mind is also one of the tricks of modern civilization.
I would have given inexpensive for a stand-alone intelligence. In General, for any isolated quality. Man is a structure, not a great manifestation.
And where to find those most severe test in math with an IQ of 145 points in the conditions of modern day civilization? Not everyone can go to serve in Khabarovsk.
Is actually a question. In Israel, for example, a very large part of the army lives in quite comfortable conditions. Yes, every day mother-to-child will not come, but to call and make a scandal because of the fact that her daughter shot down the feet, every. And the commander comes off the phone. He is not coming. The commander says that he will understand that this does not happen again. Although, on the other hand, can and this the girl put behind the fact that she ruined army property in the form of their legs.
Where to find the tests? How to grow up?
It is difficult to fit the responses of the adult men in the categorical apparatus of a three year old. Now I think about what I present, 55-year-old said to a 13-year-old.
If I were really brave I would say to myself: "Go on the path of change. Go along the path of trials." But then I was quite immature — where would I get the idea this?
"Go to the French Legion, go on a trip around the world. Or something simpler — learn English", that's what I told myself. In principle, the essence is the same: how far am I willing to look? But now it sounds so funny and looks.
Lately I've been thinking about it a lot. That person lives in their system concepts and coordinate and the other just not able to hear.
I live, for example, in a system of concepts: "If you don't have enough money to save". That's logical, right? And there is another system: "If you do not have enough money spend all the money they have and earn more." But tell that to the person of the first coordinate system! He just does not think in those terms.
I'm even afraid to say somewhere in Israel, that, if you have the army beat in this, maybe there is a logic and a meaning. Is my Israeli friends with anger said, "Yes you just "scoop"! What you're saying is ridiculous. Man shouldn't hit anywhere, neither in army, nor on the street. The fact that you Express such judgments, speaks only of your limitations and misery!" And I won't argue with them. When I say this brother or daughter, they understand what I mean.
When I say it to an adult, tolerant and so seemingly Mature people, respecting their rights and dignity, it sounds to them like a wild barbarism.
They can't explain what I'm talking about how to explain to people that prefer to save, the fact that you need to earn.
Very often categorical apparatus in which people live and which is extremely useful in a particular model is very restricting growth in another model, like a turtle shell. They say: "human Dignity above all else." They are not able without a lot of internal work to understand that the loss of dignity here may or may not be. Perhaps when you beat army, this is not about dignity.Humility is in the plane, where there are themes of dignity in principle, where there is no topic insults.It is impossible to offend the person in contact with such a thing as humility.
I'm even afraid to say such things in interviews because they sound very dangerous without explanation. Nine out of ten people in this place say, "yeah, of course, and obvious." And the second is nine out of ten will say: "What the crap?!" And I wouldn't want to be neither the first nor the second situation is really tense. Because when I talk about humility, I'm not talking about forgiveness, permissiveness. I'm not saying to turn the other cheek.
A year and a half ago my oldest son was in a situation that is causing me a lot of respect. David was then 13 years old. High school students in the amount of six people was waiting for him after school. And he certainly couldn't fight back six.
But he calmly fought and fought with those who could get. Home he came without any monologue about the injustice of the world. With Ron, the middle son, they discussed that he was able and what is not.
Ron strongly suffered that it was not there. My wife, of course, flew up and started to deal with this.
But for David this was not a topic of conflict with justice. The next day, one of the six boys told him he took the fight on video and posted online, David without any moral suffering said: "Oh, how nice. Send me the link, and then the police asked who was, and I don't remember all of them". This situation did not hit the dignity of my son.
— Well, when my son has a father that will give a correct idea about growing up, and about the trials. But if the boy's father was not at all or was, but finally depressed the wife of an alcoholic? There is such a child a chance in this life to grow, to grow up?
— First, there is the issue of the script, and there is such as artisanry. Usually many boys from families of the fathers of alcoholics grow up in a kind of supermacho, "sverhdorogimi", supermen. Yes, ask around among the leaders.
They through one here are achieving "in spite of the father." And if the mother is "good", very loving child, between father and son, chosen son that brought his father to alcoholism, and the boy received a false belief that he won the competition with his father, but in these families you will laugh, and grow the most effective men. But all is not so simple. There is nothing to rejoice. "Efficient man" and then still pay a price for it.But there is still a third story, about those men that made it over the edge of the parent script. They came from the script and began to live my life. In fact, the idea of the predetermination of our lives is greatly exaggerated.
Half says that everything is predetermined from the very birth, the other half is all set to parents, who brought us, the area in which we were born, the school where we studied...
In all this there is truth. But I would not exaggerated. It all depends on what you want and how you want it.
Who are you today?
What did you do on your way?
Here are the questions to ask yourself often.published
Interviewed By Pauline Shumitska
P. S. And remember, only by changing their consumption — together we change the world! ©