Anatoly Neelov. Life is a very short thing and I choose to enjoy life, not accumulate

Anatoly Golubovsky

Anatoly Neelov. Artistic director of the Black Square Theater. Business coach. Creator of the method of stage improvisation. Author... however, the regalia and merits are listed in detail on the Black Square website.
Husband and father. A very interesting conversationalist. Very much.

- As a child, did you really want to become a military man or is it a legend?

- I had such a dream. Firstly, the Soviet Union was a militarized country, secondly, it was honorable, and thirdly, I went in for sports. And then, when you dream of becoming a military man, you plan to become not a soldier, but a general. You have a good opinion of yourself, you think that you will definitely become one, because you are smart, you read a lot... And you also have an illusion thanks to movies. And there were plenty of war-myth films in the Soviet Union, which hung noodles on children's ears. Of course, it is unlikely that I would have become a military man, since I happened to serve in the Soviet Army, and after seeing bestiality and outright idiocy there, the desire to serve disappeared.
And the theater arose by accident...

- Was there any turning point from the army to the theater?

-No. When I was a child, I often built strategies. I had a dream of becoming a tailor, a cutter, and modeling clothes. I liked to do, as they would call it now, floristry, because I liked flowers. There were a lot of hobbies, and it was difficult to decide until the 9th grade. And then I got into Cherkov's studio and already there the desire to occupy the theater, to become a director, was finally formed.

- That is, at what age?

- At the age of 15.

- Sometimes people are born adults and from childhood they know what they want and how to go to it. You had tossing and turning...

- My parents did not insist that I be someone definite. Mom used to say "you have to be the boss" because the boss has more freedom. Given that we lived in a cramped apartment, with a lot of inconveniences, a crowd of people and animals, freedom was a kind of dominant for me. That is, I wanted to become anything, just to have freedom.
It so happened that I began to live alone in a separate apartment after the age of 33, so freedom has a high level of value for me.

- Freedom of territory, personal space...

-Yes. I was always with someone. The most painful thing I experienced in the army was that there were always people around. 200, 300 people. We line up for the canteen, line up for work, line up for exercises. There is always a sea of people around and you do not belong to yourself. Everyone communicates a little, but the conversations are money and women, and that's it, and I saw the world much more voluminous than my colleagues. And he suffered from the impossibility of being alone. I have never suffered from loneliness, as most people suffer. I see how it happens to them, but for me, solitude has always been a luxury, so being alone with myself is very valuable to me. When I was studying, at school, of course, there was always someone around. When you come home, you will have father, mother, sister, parrot, you will not be alone again... And even now, the minutes when I can be alone are very precious to me.

- Does this somehow correspond to the fact that you got married at a fairly serious age?

-No. It was very important for me to find a woman who would accept me for who I am and would not try to change me. Secondly, so that she does not have communicative sper*otoxicosis: "talk to me, communicate with me." I can come home, my wife will be busy with her own business, she will not touch me, she will be silent for an hour and a half, and not experience excruciating discomfort. Everyone is busy with their own business, then we can have a great conversation at dinner, and then go about our business again. And no one gets into the personal space of another and at the same time I do not experience any negative feelings. A sense of harmony. This is very important.



- That is, sorry for the tautology, you are quite self-sufficient people.

-Yes. At the same time, we are very comfortable with each other. No one stresses the other.

- And what is family for you in general? What did you want to find in it and did you find it?

- I wanted to find trust. This is the first thing. Secondly, I wanted to find love in the family. No matter how strange it may sound. Love, when you are happy, because there is another person next to you and he is neither a problem nor a task, but on the contrary, he is the solution to all problems and tasks. And from this arises a feeling of inner joy. And such joy is not the bright joy of a holiday, but quiet, calm, cozy. When you feel happy. When you're at home, you're home. And not in war, as is often the case in families.

- Has your family changed you?

-Yes. I became calmer. Whatever happens at work, I have a place to return. Where is ho-ro-sho.

- And what do you mean by the concept of "happiness"?

- I have a very clear concept. It looks like this. First: happiness as such does not exist. Happiness is an illusion. There is joy that we experience. And the sum of joys gives us a feeling of happiness. The more joy I experience, the happier I live. Secondly, there are circles of attention – large, medium and small. The small circle is my relationship with myself. And in order to experience joy in yourself, you need to learn to love yourself as you are. If you are dissatisfied with yourself, if you do not love yourself, then you will not be able to experience joy. Internal discomfort will be constantly present. Don't lie to yourself. Lying to oneself leads to mental deviations. You have to understand that you're not perfect. Know your strengths and weaknesses, shortcomings and advantages. But accept yourself with pleasure as you are. Without this circle of attention, it is impossible to live in joy. The second or middle circle is close people. Wife, parents, children. Those people with whom you communicate constantly. To be able to love other people. Accept them as they are. In the same way, to see their shortcomings and virtues and not to wage war with them. Either you accept the person or you don't. There is no need to redo anyone. The third circle is you and society. How much this society, this country, these people need you. And accordingly, all these people must be loved as they are. The principle is the same. If you live in love for yourself, your loved ones, for your country, then you have joy. And this sum of joys gives a feeling of happiness. Yes, there are difficulties, overlaps, irritating factors, but they are always on the periphery. Your heart and soul are protected by love as a shield. They offend me, they are rude to me, they are rude to me. This government and this country traumatize me to the fullest, but I still love it all as it is and I am not going to leave here. Therefore, I feel happier than those who let hatred and neurasthenia into their souls. I think there is no need to do this.
Did I answer the question?

-Yes. More than that. The only point is: "I'm not going to leave this country." Leaving the country, I think, is not always associated with hatred for it. A person simply understands that he can be more fully realized in another place

- The question is not "left - not left". I have the opportunity to go to America, I have resources, again, my sister is married to a wealthy American. I can do nothing, play golf, swing in a rocking chair and write a book on theater. But I'm bored. There is such a thing as creativity. If a person is not engaged in creativity – it doesn't matter what he does – sews costumes, shaves heads, plays football – then his life rots. And that's it. Therefore, if a person can find these feelings, these goals in another country, then the question is not about borders. Thank God, the presence of the Internet and today's technologies show that the globe has become quite small. It has shrunk compared to what it was 200-300 years ago.

- Did the intention to create a theater come in the early 90s?

-Before. In 88-89, when I served in the army, I already dreamed that there would be a theater studio. But I had neither the experience nor the knowledge of how to do it then. It was a pure dream and nothing else. At the same time, I studied at the institute and read a lot of special literature, including on theater, marketing, and management, in order to understand how this could be done. I like the wording "if you want it to be done well, do it yourself".
Official Ukrainian theaters were boring and uninteresting for me, both in terms of material and way of acting. I saw falsehood and lies. There is absolute pitch, when a musician hears shades of sound that, for example, I do not catch, but I have a sense of organics and truth on stage – I see whether the actor is false or not. I feel it physiologically. Like glass on glass. So the theater that I had did not satisfy me at all. I went to Moscow to see performances – I went on Friday evening, on Saturday and Sunday I watched four performances – daytime plus evening, returned to Kiev and went to the institute. I spent the night at the train station or at friends' homes. It was not a problem to sit out one night at the Leningrad railway station - they already knew me there))

- Why on Leningradsky?

-It was more comfortable - comfortable soft seats. And Kiev was more polluted.
I saw that in Moscow there is good in the theater, but we do not. And he understood that it made sense to do it. Moreover, not Moscow alone. I liked English and French theaters, and I had the opportunity, since I was already stewing in this kitchen, to watch cassette tapes from the Avignon Festival, which my friends brought. And I understood what the theater should be like. I understood that in order for it to become like this, you need to do it yourself.
But it never happened. What I have at the moment is a pitiful semblance of my dream.

- Is there a chance to get closer to your dream?

-I work on it every day as much as possible. This is the first thing. And secondly, there is such a thing as resource intensity. If there is money and premises, I will do better. Otherwise, I had to do everything from scratch.

- Was it the beginning of the 90s?

-Yes

- That is, when everything fell apart and everyone ran away

- And then nothing worked. For ten years I worked practically in vain. It all started in the 2000s.

- Ten years

- Ten years. From 1991 to 2000, the Black Square existed as a people's theater on the basis of the Palace of Culture

- That is, on a voluntary basis?

- Almost yes. As an amateur group. And I understood that actors had to be brought up myself. Now I can be proud of some of them, but at that time... For ten years I taught others and at the same time I learned myself. I taught at the Kyiv-Mohyla Business School and, using the fact that I teach, attended lectures on marketing, management, business administration. I listened to some lectures 2-3 times until I understood the essence of the issue.

- By the way, about diplomas. Practical skills and abilities of a person do not always correspond to the number of diplomas and certificates in the frame. What is your attitude to our "upper" education, including theatrical education?

- It depends on the person. Some people, like in my case, need education in order not to reinvent the wheel. I made a lot of business decisions not in the theatrical, but in the economic environment. For example, we were the first to start selling tickets online, then no one in Ukraine did this.

- What did it give economically?

-It made it possible not to drag for a ticket across the city, but to calmly buy and print without leaving the computer

-Convenience

-Yes. Comfort. This is a very important factor that brought the theater closer to the audience. Now everyone is doing it. We were the first. There are many things in the theater that we did first and that then copied all the others.

-Not patented...

- I have a lot of creativity. I am not a foreigner who, having given birth to one idea, tries to cash in on it. What for? Life is a very short thing and I choose to enjoy life, not accumulate...

- If you do not constantly invent - a person degrades

-Yes. Our life and the appearance of a person in this world is meaningless in itself. The purpose and meaning of life are absent

- Is the process important?

-No. Not a process. What matters is what you leave behind in this world. You came, devoured, slept, — and dropped out of it. Did you come to the f*** if there was nothing left after you? What did you bring? How did he make the world a better place? What did he give to this world? And I'm not talking about good or bad, black or white. Sometimes I am even impressed by villains who, destroying something, created. Like Goethe: "I am part of the force that always wants evil and always does good"

- Let's go back a little. After all, ten years of work are practically in vain. Was there certainty or hope, or some other condition?

- It depends. When the troupe was almost assembled, Vlad Troitsky came and invited all the leading actors to "Dakh". Two remained - Zhenya Voloshenyuk and Oksana Braginets. I had to start from scratch a second time. This was the moment of truth, when I was thinking about whether to make a new set, but a lot of effort and time had already been spent. There was an assemblage point – to continue or not. At that time, I was also working as a director on TV. But television, after all, is a means of mass communication, not art. TV is always secondary and will always be engaged in manipulation. Which, in principle, is not interesting to me.

- Does the theater manipulate?

-No. We can then say that painting, music, sculpture also manipulate

- Isn't it?

-No. The theater is the only place where lies are legalized. Everyone lies. A politician lies to his voters, a mother lies to her son, a boss lies to a subordinate, a subordinate, of course, to a boss. The world is in total, global lies. But when you come to the theater, you know that this play was once written, the actors rehearsed it for some time, that is, this is not true. And this is the most valuable thing. It is in the place where lies are legitimized that they must disappear. Actors should live here and now. Honestly, truly, without any imitation of the game. And then the theater turns into a form of art that neither the Internet nor cinema can kill, no matter how much it has been predicted for hundreds of years. Because live human communication at this level lives for thousands of years and will continue to live.



- What motivated you to hold on for these ten years?

-Love. I love what I do. I love actors, I love the audience, I love the process. When I talked about happiness, that's what I meant. And there is one more point: "What would I change it for?" Yes, socially I would have been more affluent, "drove a Mercedes", would have had a "house in Koncha-Zaspa". And why do I need it? There would be no happiness. That very joy.

- You had contradictions with the leading actors of the theater. But you know how to negotiate, find compromises

- Yes, I had a lot of contradictions. And there is now. In the theater, I always make compromises. Theater is generally a tangle of compromises. Everyone is ambitious, everyone is average, not to mention the fact that a good actor knows "how to do it" better. Therefore, directing is always a search for compromises in order to make a good performance. If I, as a director, pass it, and I have such an opportunity, then I will get a "dead" performance. If I give the actors complete freedom, I will get a "glovely" performance. A good performance is born with mutual respect and a joint search for the truth. After all, no one possesses the truth, it is born not in the head of one person, but in the sum of the points of view of many. Then it turns from subjective to objective. And even then - not for everyone

- Do you like unpredictability in your life, in your work?

-No. I don't like it. But it is there, and I accept it

- But a predictable person as a partner, an actor is not always interesting

-Yes. Most often, the predictable one is boring. Just as predictability on stage is always boring. But predictability is necessary for business development. Because this is already analytics, strategy. And a predictable person also has his strengths and weaknesses. I like the theory that the world tends more towards chaos than order. Therefore, predictability is one of the rarest things. Everything is just everyone's personal point of view, because we are all different. If a person is attentive to the world, then predictability simply disappears. It's cynicism to predict anything

- If I am attentive to the world, does predictability disappear?

-Yes. This world is changing every second

-Think so. You can't program

-Exactly. Murphy's laws have not been canceled. Everyone laughs at them, but they work hard. Yes, they do not work every time. And this is their beauty. Here he did not work. And here too. We have already built a theory, a system. And it worked – grunting – and it worked. The world is chaotic. The nature of the world is in motion. It is like a form of existence of matter.

- There is a message "you need to do what you are good at". But I can be good at doing one thing, and I like to do something completely different

- I believe that this is a casted message. In psychology, there is a definition of "the main type of activity". A person can go to work, be, for example, a programmer, and his soul will belong to a collection of stamps. And he is the best philatelist in the country, a specialist in the late Soviet period. A person can engage in several activities. But there is a main one. And this is what he does with the greatest success and/or pleasure. I didn't invent it. If there is success, but there is no pleasure, this is to do what you do best. But there is no joy at the same time. If there is pleasure, but no success, you are not socially integrated into the existing reality. Therefore, you need to have something that allows you to combine it.

- If you do something that does not give pleasure, at some point it becomes sickening to live

- When you do what you don't like, life rots. Moreover, I am sincerely sure that there is no such thing as talent. I have often talked about this and continue to talk about it. An intelligent person has many abilities. I am sure that if I had decided to become not a director, but a fashion designer, I would have achieved success there as well. I would have decided to become a surgeon, if I loved this business and enjoyed it, then I would have achieved success there too. The trick is that for many thousands of years, people have reduced the topic of giftedness to the fact that a person has one talent and ability for one thing. If a person is endowed with the ability to work, intelligence, if he is not cowardly, then he has a sum of talents. And he can realize himself in various activities.

- About talent. There are De Niro, Al Pacino, Yankovsky, there are, conditionally, the rest. There is Messi, Ronaldo - there are others. Are they just less stiff?

- I think these people could have succeeded in other areas. De Niro could have become a posh gangster. One of the best. Maybe he would have had a different life. Or maybe not. I believe that there is such a thing as chance. God manifests Himself in this world in the form of accidents. I think that if a person is lazy and cowardly, he will not succeed in anything, even if he has innate qualities.

- Many people work all their lives, but achieve absolutely nothing

- So, they are doing it stupidly. They don't think about it. And you need to think

- But this is just the most difficult and difficult

-Yes. I am talking about intelligence. After all, everything is interconnected. To work and not to think means not to Live. No intellect – no development. But if there is intelligence, if there is no work, there will be nothing either.



- What would you like to change in the Cheka at the moment?

- I don't have such an opportunity. The only thing I would like to change is for the state to give free premises. Yes, at least it just didn't bother. I'll do the rest myself. There are not enough resources. There are actors, the human factor can be solved, there are spectators. Give us space so that we don't pay rent, it's tiring. Dearly. We go on tour all over Ukraine, and all the theaters to which the state gives money also profit from the fact that we pay them rent. But they should make money on performances. But they are coming at us. We have full houses where the occupancy of halls at the productions of local performances is a third of the hall. The spectator can buy a ticket for any seat, but they do not sell the balcony and mezzanine, you can sit in the stalls for free seats. Because the performances are bad. Of course, there are several good theaters in Ukraine, they treat the work and the audience with love, I take my hat off to them.
So I am only interested in one thing for development – resources. Not even necessarily money. We know how to earn them.

- You constantly mention that a person must always be conscious. And when you came to understand this, it's not innate, is it?

-I don't know. I could not catch this moment. I thought already at school, not as consciously as now, but the rudiments, so to speak, of grain in the ground, were already there. I believe that the main gift that my parents gave me was that they taught me to read, developed and encouraged it. Thousands of books read. In the pioneer camp, I signed up for the library and read every day. Everyone went to play football, dated girls, I did it only on a dotted line, realizing that in a more mature life I would get better girls and more pleasure

- Did you understand it in adolescence?

-Of course. I understood that if I developed my intellect, it would all happen. Therefore, wherever possible, I read. I read it when I was walking down the street, riding in transport. He lived in Troyeshchyna. At that time there were no minibuses, I took a tram or trolleybus at the terminal and read for forty minutes on the way. Plus forty minutes on the way back. There was not a day when I did not have a new book in my bag. Therefore, I think that reading not only tasty, but also smart books led to the development of awareness.

- You accept yourself as you are. Are there any traits that you don't like and would like to change?

- Yes, yes, yes. I'm very lazy and very cowardly. I am constantly afraid and lazy. I would like everything to be done with ease and be less afraid. I went on stage and there was a terrible adrenaline, a thought: "... why did you stage this performance, let Kurilko and Danilyuk play, but I don't need to..." And when you start playing, the audience does not see fear, and it is always present.

- Or maybe things should really be done easily. And if it comes with a creak, maybe it's a sign from above that it's his, it's not yours?

- I do it easily. I just don't want to do it now, but I want to read a book...

-Stop! And if I don't want to do it, then I do it without pleasure?

-No. If I do something, I do it with pleasure. It's just that the volume of what I do in the theater goes beyond common sense. I'm not 50 yet. But I staged and took part as a director in almost a hundred performances. There are about seventy active productions in the Black Square. I didn't make a dozen of them, and there are still those that are no longer played. And this is all practice and practice again. And because of this, you get wildly tired. The body is already rebelling purely physically, because you are no longer lazy with your soul, but only with your body. I am aging quickly, I have many health problems. My doctor says that usually sixty-year-olds have such problems.

- By virtue of lifestyle?

- Due to the amount of work performed

- In the names and content of the performances that are currently in rotation, there is a conjuncture

- Of course, marketing and conjuncture are present. We are a business theater, the audience is our main source of income. And he votes with his feet. If you don't come, then you are against it. So there are no options in this matter. There must be a conjuncture. But there must also be a balance of common sense. There should be exclusive performances that the pop audience will not go to, but intellectuals who love arthouse will go. The assortment of the store, which will sell only expensive cognac, is very unprofitable. I believe that there should be cognac, wine, and water - carbonated and without gas, and juice. The theater should have a wide range of

- The biggest fear in life

- Previously, it was the fear of losing vision. If I am left without an arm, a leg, a tongue, I will still be able to direct. It is difficult to do this without vision. Now there is a fear of being left without a son. With the birth of the child, I acquired a sense of a kind of continuation of myself. He will not be like me, I am not going to force him to do theater and directing. He will choose what he wants. And it is not a fact that I will live to see the choice. So my task is to teach him hard work, courage, love of reading and development. Let him do the rest himself. In general, having a child increased the feeling of happiness.



- Are you annoyed by stupid people?

-No. I don't even feel sorry. I just accept. There are very nice, charming, interesting stupid people. They are a pleasure to deal with. There are angry, aggressive, intelligent people. You want to get around them. I accept stupidity as a failed development, when you feel not pity, but regret. But at the same time, you accept a person without experiencing negative emotions towards him. You need to love people as they are. Love. No matter what. Not thanks to, but in spite of. A favorite quote from "Roadside Picnic" is "You must make good out of evil, because there is nothing else to make it from." If you accept this formulation, you can be happy in this world. The world is not perfect. Making claims to people, reality, time, country is a sign of intellectual inferiority. An adult conscious person does not make claims.

- You still have to communicate with angry, but interesting people. There are many of them

-Of course.

- They seem to dominate

- Yes, sometimes it happens. It depends on the team in which you work. Thank God, I form the Square myself, there are few of them here.

- If you are invited to politics?

-No. I don't want to

- And what about the opportunity to change something?

-Called. They invited me to participate in the elections, even get into the Kyiv City Council, realizing that I had a resource that would help me get votes. I refused immediately. I didn't even bother to think about it. Several people's deputies left the Cheka, but politics is too unscrupulous a business to make money on it.

- Uninteresting or disgusting?

-Nasty. I work with politicians often and a lot. And I see how politics transforms decent people into dishonest ones. They are tormented by the fact that they have become politicians, but they can no longer do anything else.

- The question is controversial. Can. But they are afraid

- I say - they can't. Why they can't is another question.



- The ability to decide the fate of people - what does it feel like?

- At the age of 25-30, when I was recruiting for the studio, it flattered my self-esteem and gave me a certain pleasure. It's a tremendous strain right now, and if someone could take the exam and recruit people without me, I would trust that person because I feel the weight of responsibility for every decision I make. This is always a watershed and a different fate for a person. Radically different. Not to mention the fact that more than fifty people were born simply because their parents came to the Cheka, got to know each other, someone had families, they spoke the same language, they became closer to each other than other people. And when, for example, a boy has passed an exam, and after it a girl comes out and I see that they are a potential couple, then it is difficult for me to make a yes/no decision in such a situation. Unlike those who enter, I know well what awaits them. They are not yet.

- But nothing happens by chance in life

- No, everything is accidental. If some sper*atozoon overtook yours, your parents wouldn't have had you. And there were a lot of them there

- It was not an accident

- Whoa. How is it in "Panda Kung Fu"? "Non-coincidences are not accidental, dear friend"

- We are looking for our own people in life. Your own circle. This is very important. When, for example, you explain a joke twice, then either the joke is not the same, or the circle is not yours. And when you find it, it's like finding a family

"Yes, that's why the Black Square is a kind of clan. Too big for the family and too cohesive and compressed at the level of certain paradigms.

- Is it hard to drive?

-Very much. Last season we played five hundred or so performances. The norm for an academic degree is 240 with several hundred employees. In our country, this volume is performed by ten people. Therefore, it is really difficult. But, I repeat, the only thing that is lacking is resources.

- Would you like to change something in the life you have chosen?

- I am often asked this question. And I answer - I did not think about it. You will begin to wonder – why if I won't do it anyway?

- Are you a kind person?

-No

- How does this relate to love?

- Kindness is a kind of synonym for weakness. I am a conscious person. Sometimes it is more useful and effective to show anger and aggression towards a given person. And this is not good. It's just intellectual help. Although from the outside you look very unpleasant. Well, okay. I'm not kind and I don't want to be one. Conscious – yes. This is more important to me.

- What is success for you?

- A feeling of harmony when you sleep easily and with pleasure. As much as you need. When you don't think about where to get money for the tasks and goals that you need. When there are people who cannot live without you and people without whom you cannot live. This is necessarily mutual. And when there is health.

- What motivates you to move on? A lot has been done, the trace has been left

- This is just the beginning. And the motivation is that if I am gone tomorrow, it should all not fall apart. The train must go on, even if the driver gets off. Moreover, the train itself knows how to set its destinations. So that the business benefits people years later. Both those who are on the train and those who look at it