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Tatyana Chernigov: It is important to understand how we are programmed
The feeling that this mad, mad, mad world in the eyes of even more going crazy all the time is condensed. This is due primarily to the native mind, Homo sapiens. And torn, contradictory picture of life as it is reflected in the brain contemporaries.
Exacerbated the problems of the brain, the latest scientific fashion and diseases of civilization of the XXI century are discussing with the largest domestic expert in the field theory of consciousness, head of the Department of convergence of the sciences and humanities Petersburg State University professor Tatyana Chernigov. The man, whose research interests combine psychology, biology and semiotics.
- Tatiana, what Dostoyevsky called "disease to realize", - this is the greatest human need, or maybe a curse
? - On which side to look. You can call it a test, or nothing. If you are a spiritual person - one answer. If not -. The opposite
- What in the world today are busy and preoccupied with your colleagues-cognitivists
? - Busy different. But the world fashion - the rate on the brain. Huge project «BRAIN» American. Giant money are given to decipher brain mechanisms and its simulation. Here, for example, we would be lucky and we have learned how the brain really works, how it manages to work. This could have an impact on the civilization scale. would have changed the means of communication have changed education, medicine, all the equipment - everything. Therefore, this money will not regret.
The European project - «Human brain project». Also a lot of money. It brings together the best universities and research centers around the world.
Incidentally, such things do not happen. Brain research - perhaps the most important right now. Even those who are engaged in any war, understand that winning electronics: to make a more powerful high-speed system will win
. But brain research does not necessarily carry a negative result - it's alarmist position. First of all, they will bring a huge positive effect in medicine. This first-class thing the size of a huge disaster. Brain diseases are located in the world in the first place, have overplayed cardiovascular and oncology. I used to let herself stupid joke: what do we do when the majority of people inhabiting the Earth will go crazy? Doshutilas! This is a very serious thing! US statistics show that half of the population is depressed. Strokes younger. Alzheimer, Parkinson ... how many autistic! This is all connected with the brain.
- Does it have something that differentiates between good and evil? A device that scans a black and white?
- A scientific answer to it is not. I can answer polufilosofski, polunauchno and start from the other end. It is important to understand how we are programmed. Recently, this topic is a lot of talk. Well, I'm so ugly, ugly. But I'm not to blame that so ugly ?! For the market to answer, and for genetics - no
. Yes, underestimate the role of genes is ridiculous. Genetics - a powerful science and is becoming faster and cheaper price research: in the past, say, individual genome transcript was worth a million dollars, now - a thousand. And that almost everyone can afford. Genes - the baggage with which you are born, but in order for him to play, it is necessary to include ...
- And that serves as a key
? - Everything that happens to you! Where did you learn who your parents, friends, teachers - the experience of the outside world. So if we say, "I'm out here with it ?!" - this position is not only immoral, but not scientifically correct. Because we are now taking responsibility for our actions in the brain tissue. If we thus look at life, you have to close the shop at all.
- According to the American psychologist Philip Zimbardo, we do not know how we will behave in certain circumstances
? - It is possible and harder to say: we do not know who we are. Not as man, not like a race, inhabiting the Earth, but everyone - himself. For example, you believe that you know yourself?
- No, of course
! - That's the kind of world we got! And hit recently. Sometimes it seems that we are in a mental hospital. The world was filled with a terrible lie, and an extremely stupid lie; Man shows you the cup, and he says it - Andromeda. And this is happening on the scale of several continents. In a world of increased nervousness, anxiety, approaching clinical. A lot of people living in the border states.
- Poor our classics believed that the Russian people in 200 years will be substantially better, but two centuries have passed, and we see that the complex becomes more basic, fine - coarse, intelligent - a massive ...
- Yes it is. Although some studies have shown that IQ increases. I also believe that IQ - mura complete, it takes into account only the ability to the calculation in the broadest sense, and many kinds of intelligence. All the same, the highest IQ will have a supercomputer.
- In our brain, millions of neurons. Could it be that the finest engineering created for some supreme task?
- I would like to think so! But the complexity itself, the complexity as such, does not guarantee self-awareness, reflection, an opportunity to assess themselves. Modern computers, artificial intelligence media, thank you, Lord, is no consciousness do not possess. But personally, I'm really afraid that just rapidly increasing complexity of artificial intelligence at some time may pass a certain threshold, and then this, I would venture to say, creatures, awareness of his power will be.
- And then-fi movies predictions come true literally ?!
- I do not see why not. There is a serious scientific question I ask many colleagues. Here it is: whether the result of the complexity of consciousness? Can we say that the brain, starting from primitive beings on the planet, endlessly complicated, comes to a certain threshold, when consciousness arises? If so, there is no obstacle to the fact that in the rapidly growing field of artificial intelligence technology have not reached this result.
But if the intellect, by type resembling a human, then this "substance" must be some semblance of a body. You do not have a body like ours, but at least the sensors that give the option of physicality. We are what we are, because we have such a body. Now in the world, this problem is called "embodiment" physicality. She is seriously discussed. After all, there are a lot of our neighbors on the planet who hear and see other bands, and the worlds in which they live, for them other.
You could ask a terrible question, but in general the world what? So: on this issue, I think there is no answer for anybody. Also fools. Unified view of the world, in principle, no. We see only what we are allowed by the Creator.
I once thought, maybe sit down to write a novel fantastic .. Sorry, no? But remember "Solaris" - that's the thinking broth; from the fact that we really have not met such, it should be only one thing: we have not yet met this
! - If you do take up a science fiction novel, which would choose the plot
? - Of course, about the intelligence! What could be more mysterious and interesting? By the way, recently interviewed an American scientist, who long ago began a program of study of extraterrestrial civilizations. He said the thing that struck me: it is possible that the signals of extraterrestrial civilizations just fly around us - we just do not have the tools that would catch them and decipher. To do this, you need to have a common code.
Or another "dangerous" theme - psychic capabilities and telepathy. Only a fool would challenge their existence. And intuition, insight? We have no idea what it is. Stand in the position and say that this is not - just nonsense. But what to do? The methods of modern science are not suitable. Because science is necessarily implies three things: verifiability, repeatability and statistical reliability. Let's say you've got some facts, describe them published in a serious scientific publication, and some Michael Dorfin from Guadeloupe should be able to repeat them and get the same result, you know? Rules of the game are. And here we are talking about a single phenomenon, which is no way to grasp. What repeatability - in enlightenment ?!
- Not the last of the twentieth century intellectual Levi Strauss predicted, as we know, that XXI century will be a century of humanitarianism, or it never will. But he, XXI century has come, we are in it lived 14 years, yet there are no signs that it becomes a humanitarian - but what he becomes the century of what science
? - Everything is moving in the direction of artificial life, I would have said so. The most fashionable idea - immortality. Hope for the machines, artificial intelligences. Huge request for it many, including the powers that be. And the options are there. Not just your body and brain freeze and transfer all the computer - this is a season hit
! - It's like ?!
- And so! Create powerful artificial neural network, which will transfer the entire contents of your brain. It is unclear, however, at what point are going to do this copy ... But your great-grandchildren, if they want, they click a button, and - please:. Prababushkina whole life
- Ouch! But what about the privacy, identity a secret, after all?
- That's it. Questions intractable set. And it looks like it will be possible to make some new Statement perfect children. Eyes blue or bright green, legs from the ears, IQ - 200. All will order and do it! It's me, of course, ernichat. But obstacles do not see formal.
- But what we vzyskuem immortality, when we, if all things go to form, soon will be surrounded by a crowd of Huns no idea about grammar
? - Yes, it is now to organize education - a huge problem. What do people learn? Given that each Google in your pocket, the number of "facts" is growing every day, and too much information a person wears?
The question for a long time not to accumulate knowledge - the question is, to learn to think, to find the information, classify it, to learn to learn. It must, I think, to change the whole system in general. Not us, everywhere.
- You personally, Tatyana than doing now
? - I always do different, but including the brain in connection with language: how the brain manages to cope with such a complex system as the human language; the syntax to handle, with the words; what happens to people who use different languages at the same time? By the way, this is a situation of extreme stress! Simultaneous interpreters - it's hard to imagine a more stressful work. Is that the rescuers during the tsunami. Switching from code to code extremely fast, with forecasts and a prediction - it is interesting as a model of what the brain's doing
. Now with the Institute of Human Brain examine the brain and creativity. What's in the brain occurs when a person is doing? That's why I do not believe in artificial intelligence and its possibilities: it is not visible to any of sverhmashin created something like Mozart, Beethoven, or Pushkin
. - Of course! Divine spark is not present!
- And that's what happens in the brain when he makes a discovery? There is a nontrivial progress? Find the perfect rhyme? In general, and consciousness - is the brain, and memory - the brain, and language - also. Brodsky said that "poetry - the highest form of language, a special accelerator species consciousness and our goal." That is how we are able to view more than the iron keepers, who chase one and zeros. We are doing something completely different ... If tomorrow the students will learn just technical things (as such a device to enable that to get where), then nothing good do not wait: the consciousness is formed and develops the read clever books, talking with intelligent people, hearing clever and beautiful music.
- What do you think about the generation of your students? What are they?
- Of course, they are very capable. One more capable than the other. A lot of talented young women. They have some skilled: drive jeeps, dress well, look good, go elsewhere. Several of my young colleagues in the two children, and it absolutely will not stop their scientific life. Children took in his arms, in London for a conference and went to Italy to museums where children feel at home. I'm happy for them. They are independent, above all very competitive. Compete with the West, and with whom you want, receive grants.
They live their lives, but we all live together. And if there is some kind of work, it is night and day. Nobody ever looks, this weekend, or vacation. Many of the things we certainly do not like: the terrible bureaucracy, falls on us all sorts of rubbish, but it is like a board. But we get the money for research, we can buy equipment very good - understand for what we suffer
. - A favorable financial situation
? - I would say that it is good. At least we have that. There are always different grants, not one or two even, but three or four, and all the major. Grant RNF we won big, a lot of things that allows us to do. This equipment, and the opportunity to ride on a different conference, but also the salary. Naturally, the money that people get for grants greater than those they receive from the state.
- What equipment helps you in your research
? - For example, we have a device that registers the micro-movements of eyes, eye-tracker called. They really are quite expensive, if a good model. And we have a good model. From her students, who have just come straight from the tin, it is now just hype. These devices allow you to record what is going on with your eyes, what they do, conditionally say, when they see a certain image or read. This means that you can keep track of where your attention, causing your difficulties, where you make mistakes, what's going on with your memory. It is a powerful tool. A huge problem in the world today with reading and writing. Disgrafikov dyslexics and dozens, if not hundreds, of millions. This, incidentally, is also a violation of brain dysfunctions minimum discharge. Violations are small, but enough to spoil the man's life. People with high intelligence who win, say, physics Olympiad, or chemistry, or mathematics, have a solid unit in the Russian language. And nothing to do with it is impossible. Badly written, monstrously read slowly, with difficulty, skipping, back. So, these devices make it possible to see what happens in humans during the reading that is not so. They have the benefit of the application and because the results of yield techniques that can be used to help people.
- You are always eagerly engaged with the knowledge in different fields and disciplines. What are the secrets of this world today, you seem to be the most significant?
- Brain - number one. And I do not know what music is. Not in the banal sense, but in general, it is - as if from the other realms, something wonderful. And close to it - mathematics. I often sticks to the mathematicians and physicists, asking the question: if the people will disappear from the planet, mathematics remains? It puts people into a dead end. But I'm not for the impasse, I want to get the answer! Because the math - is "property of the world," as Galileo. He believed that the "Creator built the world language of mathematics." What do all the math is subject ...
- If you had absolute power and can carry out any decision that would be made for the good Earthlings
? - What are you asking scary questions! I believe that if the spiritual life, including religion, art, literature - serious things that has created mankind for their heavy and not very long history - if they are not careful, serious attitude earthlings, then, I think, not for long we live on this planet. That's the most important thing in a man - the spiritual sphere, the only thing at the other beings, it seems, no
. - That is, it is necessary to reform the entire life
? - It is essential to reformat. Technocratic road - a dead end. My previous coffee, which broke down was much easier than the one I have now. Why should I study these buttons, force her to spend? You can also take the pots, to pour water, put the coffee, put on the hot sand and sit quietly, to look at the starry sky overhead. Kant told us all ...
I think we pay off for neglecting such things. If the children in the school give Digest - a summary of Dostoevsky's novels is that? Dostoevsky's novels - not detectives. They can not be cut, they can not be removed in a single letter. Soul brings what? Sophisticated literature. Sophisticated art. But if one looks at the picture of Leonardo and does not understand what is in it at all, because his video camera catches a world more exactly - it means, there is a disintegration of consciousness ...
Exacerbated the problems of the brain, the latest scientific fashion and diseases of civilization of the XXI century are discussing with the largest domestic expert in the field theory of consciousness, head of the Department of convergence of the sciences and humanities Petersburg State University professor Tatyana Chernigov. The man, whose research interests combine psychology, biology and semiotics.
- Tatiana, what Dostoyevsky called "disease to realize", - this is the greatest human need, or maybe a curse
? - On which side to look. You can call it a test, or nothing. If you are a spiritual person - one answer. If not -. The opposite
- What in the world today are busy and preoccupied with your colleagues-cognitivists
? - Busy different. But the world fashion - the rate on the brain. Huge project «BRAIN» American. Giant money are given to decipher brain mechanisms and its simulation. Here, for example, we would be lucky and we have learned how the brain really works, how it manages to work. This could have an impact on the civilization scale. would have changed the means of communication have changed education, medicine, all the equipment - everything. Therefore, this money will not regret.
The European project - «Human brain project». Also a lot of money. It brings together the best universities and research centers around the world.
Incidentally, such things do not happen. Brain research - perhaps the most important right now. Even those who are engaged in any war, understand that winning electronics: to make a more powerful high-speed system will win
. But brain research does not necessarily carry a negative result - it's alarmist position. First of all, they will bring a huge positive effect in medicine. This first-class thing the size of a huge disaster. Brain diseases are located in the world in the first place, have overplayed cardiovascular and oncology. I used to let herself stupid joke: what do we do when the majority of people inhabiting the Earth will go crazy? Doshutilas! This is a very serious thing! US statistics show that half of the population is depressed. Strokes younger. Alzheimer, Parkinson ... how many autistic! This is all connected with the brain.
- Does it have something that differentiates between good and evil? A device that scans a black and white?
- A scientific answer to it is not. I can answer polufilosofski, polunauchno and start from the other end. It is important to understand how we are programmed. Recently, this topic is a lot of talk. Well, I'm so ugly, ugly. But I'm not to blame that so ugly ?! For the market to answer, and for genetics - no
. Yes, underestimate the role of genes is ridiculous. Genetics - a powerful science and is becoming faster and cheaper price research: in the past, say, individual genome transcript was worth a million dollars, now - a thousand. And that almost everyone can afford. Genes - the baggage with which you are born, but in order for him to play, it is necessary to include ...
- And that serves as a key
? - Everything that happens to you! Where did you learn who your parents, friends, teachers - the experience of the outside world. So if we say, "I'm out here with it ?!" - this position is not only immoral, but not scientifically correct. Because we are now taking responsibility for our actions in the brain tissue. If we thus look at life, you have to close the shop at all.
- According to the American psychologist Philip Zimbardo, we do not know how we will behave in certain circumstances
? - It is possible and harder to say: we do not know who we are. Not as man, not like a race, inhabiting the Earth, but everyone - himself. For example, you believe that you know yourself?
- No, of course
! - That's the kind of world we got! And hit recently. Sometimes it seems that we are in a mental hospital. The world was filled with a terrible lie, and an extremely stupid lie; Man shows you the cup, and he says it - Andromeda. And this is happening on the scale of several continents. In a world of increased nervousness, anxiety, approaching clinical. A lot of people living in the border states.
- Poor our classics believed that the Russian people in 200 years will be substantially better, but two centuries have passed, and we see that the complex becomes more basic, fine - coarse, intelligent - a massive ...
- Yes it is. Although some studies have shown that IQ increases. I also believe that IQ - mura complete, it takes into account only the ability to the calculation in the broadest sense, and many kinds of intelligence. All the same, the highest IQ will have a supercomputer.
- In our brain, millions of neurons. Could it be that the finest engineering created for some supreme task?
- I would like to think so! But the complexity itself, the complexity as such, does not guarantee self-awareness, reflection, an opportunity to assess themselves. Modern computers, artificial intelligence media, thank you, Lord, is no consciousness do not possess. But personally, I'm really afraid that just rapidly increasing complexity of artificial intelligence at some time may pass a certain threshold, and then this, I would venture to say, creatures, awareness of his power will be.
- And then-fi movies predictions come true literally ?!
- I do not see why not. There is a serious scientific question I ask many colleagues. Here it is: whether the result of the complexity of consciousness? Can we say that the brain, starting from primitive beings on the planet, endlessly complicated, comes to a certain threshold, when consciousness arises? If so, there is no obstacle to the fact that in the rapidly growing field of artificial intelligence technology have not reached this result.
But if the intellect, by type resembling a human, then this "substance" must be some semblance of a body. You do not have a body like ours, but at least the sensors that give the option of physicality. We are what we are, because we have such a body. Now in the world, this problem is called "embodiment" physicality. She is seriously discussed. After all, there are a lot of our neighbors on the planet who hear and see other bands, and the worlds in which they live, for them other.
You could ask a terrible question, but in general the world what? So: on this issue, I think there is no answer for anybody. Also fools. Unified view of the world, in principle, no. We see only what we are allowed by the Creator.
I once thought, maybe sit down to write a novel fantastic .. Sorry, no? But remember "Solaris" - that's the thinking broth; from the fact that we really have not met such, it should be only one thing: we have not yet met this
! - If you do take up a science fiction novel, which would choose the plot
? - Of course, about the intelligence! What could be more mysterious and interesting? By the way, recently interviewed an American scientist, who long ago began a program of study of extraterrestrial civilizations. He said the thing that struck me: it is possible that the signals of extraterrestrial civilizations just fly around us - we just do not have the tools that would catch them and decipher. To do this, you need to have a common code.
Or another "dangerous" theme - psychic capabilities and telepathy. Only a fool would challenge their existence. And intuition, insight? We have no idea what it is. Stand in the position and say that this is not - just nonsense. But what to do? The methods of modern science are not suitable. Because science is necessarily implies three things: verifiability, repeatability and statistical reliability. Let's say you've got some facts, describe them published in a serious scientific publication, and some Michael Dorfin from Guadeloupe should be able to repeat them and get the same result, you know? Rules of the game are. And here we are talking about a single phenomenon, which is no way to grasp. What repeatability - in enlightenment ?!
- Not the last of the twentieth century intellectual Levi Strauss predicted, as we know, that XXI century will be a century of humanitarianism, or it never will. But he, XXI century has come, we are in it lived 14 years, yet there are no signs that it becomes a humanitarian - but what he becomes the century of what science
? - Everything is moving in the direction of artificial life, I would have said so. The most fashionable idea - immortality. Hope for the machines, artificial intelligences. Huge request for it many, including the powers that be. And the options are there. Not just your body and brain freeze and transfer all the computer - this is a season hit
! - It's like ?!
- And so! Create powerful artificial neural network, which will transfer the entire contents of your brain. It is unclear, however, at what point are going to do this copy ... But your great-grandchildren, if they want, they click a button, and - please:. Prababushkina whole life
- Ouch! But what about the privacy, identity a secret, after all?
- That's it. Questions intractable set. And it looks like it will be possible to make some new Statement perfect children. Eyes blue or bright green, legs from the ears, IQ - 200. All will order and do it! It's me, of course, ernichat. But obstacles do not see formal.
- But what we vzyskuem immortality, when we, if all things go to form, soon will be surrounded by a crowd of Huns no idea about grammar
? - Yes, it is now to organize education - a huge problem. What do people learn? Given that each Google in your pocket, the number of "facts" is growing every day, and too much information a person wears?
The question for a long time not to accumulate knowledge - the question is, to learn to think, to find the information, classify it, to learn to learn. It must, I think, to change the whole system in general. Not us, everywhere.
- You personally, Tatyana than doing now
? - I always do different, but including the brain in connection with language: how the brain manages to cope with such a complex system as the human language; the syntax to handle, with the words; what happens to people who use different languages at the same time? By the way, this is a situation of extreme stress! Simultaneous interpreters - it's hard to imagine a more stressful work. Is that the rescuers during the tsunami. Switching from code to code extremely fast, with forecasts and a prediction - it is interesting as a model of what the brain's doing
. Now with the Institute of Human Brain examine the brain and creativity. What's in the brain occurs when a person is doing? That's why I do not believe in artificial intelligence and its possibilities: it is not visible to any of sverhmashin created something like Mozart, Beethoven, or Pushkin
. - Of course! Divine spark is not present!
- And that's what happens in the brain when he makes a discovery? There is a nontrivial progress? Find the perfect rhyme? In general, and consciousness - is the brain, and memory - the brain, and language - also. Brodsky said that "poetry - the highest form of language, a special accelerator species consciousness and our goal." That is how we are able to view more than the iron keepers, who chase one and zeros. We are doing something completely different ... If tomorrow the students will learn just technical things (as such a device to enable that to get where), then nothing good do not wait: the consciousness is formed and develops the read clever books, talking with intelligent people, hearing clever and beautiful music.
- What do you think about the generation of your students? What are they?
- Of course, they are very capable. One more capable than the other. A lot of talented young women. They have some skilled: drive jeeps, dress well, look good, go elsewhere. Several of my young colleagues in the two children, and it absolutely will not stop their scientific life. Children took in his arms, in London for a conference and went to Italy to museums where children feel at home. I'm happy for them. They are independent, above all very competitive. Compete with the West, and with whom you want, receive grants.
They live their lives, but we all live together. And if there is some kind of work, it is night and day. Nobody ever looks, this weekend, or vacation. Many of the things we certainly do not like: the terrible bureaucracy, falls on us all sorts of rubbish, but it is like a board. But we get the money for research, we can buy equipment very good - understand for what we suffer
. - A favorable financial situation
? - I would say that it is good. At least we have that. There are always different grants, not one or two even, but three or four, and all the major. Grant RNF we won big, a lot of things that allows us to do. This equipment, and the opportunity to ride on a different conference, but also the salary. Naturally, the money that people get for grants greater than those they receive from the state.
- What equipment helps you in your research
? - For example, we have a device that registers the micro-movements of eyes, eye-tracker called. They really are quite expensive, if a good model. And we have a good model. From her students, who have just come straight from the tin, it is now just hype. These devices allow you to record what is going on with your eyes, what they do, conditionally say, when they see a certain image or read. This means that you can keep track of where your attention, causing your difficulties, where you make mistakes, what's going on with your memory. It is a powerful tool. A huge problem in the world today with reading and writing. Disgrafikov dyslexics and dozens, if not hundreds, of millions. This, incidentally, is also a violation of brain dysfunctions minimum discharge. Violations are small, but enough to spoil the man's life. People with high intelligence who win, say, physics Olympiad, or chemistry, or mathematics, have a solid unit in the Russian language. And nothing to do with it is impossible. Badly written, monstrously read slowly, with difficulty, skipping, back. So, these devices make it possible to see what happens in humans during the reading that is not so. They have the benefit of the application and because the results of yield techniques that can be used to help people.
- You are always eagerly engaged with the knowledge in different fields and disciplines. What are the secrets of this world today, you seem to be the most significant?
- Brain - number one. And I do not know what music is. Not in the banal sense, but in general, it is - as if from the other realms, something wonderful. And close to it - mathematics. I often sticks to the mathematicians and physicists, asking the question: if the people will disappear from the planet, mathematics remains? It puts people into a dead end. But I'm not for the impasse, I want to get the answer! Because the math - is "property of the world," as Galileo. He believed that the "Creator built the world language of mathematics." What do all the math is subject ...
- If you had absolute power and can carry out any decision that would be made for the good Earthlings
? - What are you asking scary questions! I believe that if the spiritual life, including religion, art, literature - serious things that has created mankind for their heavy and not very long history - if they are not careful, serious attitude earthlings, then, I think, not for long we live on this planet. That's the most important thing in a man - the spiritual sphere, the only thing at the other beings, it seems, no
. - That is, it is necessary to reform the entire life
? - It is essential to reformat. Technocratic road - a dead end. My previous coffee, which broke down was much easier than the one I have now. Why should I study these buttons, force her to spend? You can also take the pots, to pour water, put the coffee, put on the hot sand and sit quietly, to look at the starry sky overhead. Kant told us all ...
I think we pay off for neglecting such things. If the children in the school give Digest - a summary of Dostoevsky's novels is that? Dostoevsky's novels - not detectives. They can not be cut, they can not be removed in a single letter. Soul brings what? Sophisticated literature. Sophisticated art. But if one looks at the picture of Leonardo and does not understand what is in it at all, because his video camera catches a world more exactly - it means, there is a disintegration of consciousness ...
