Interview with Donald Trump in a magazine, 1990.

Pure gold, for example, predicts the overthrow of Gorbachev. In general, it is fashionable to say that Trump is a clown, a populist, a chameleon. Well, here's a 25-year-old interview where he says exactly what he says today. There's even a presidential post. You want to be president? - Absolutely not. I will only change my mind if I see the country going to hell.”




Questions: Glenn Plaskin, March 1990. Translated by Grigory Nikolaev

Donald Trump is alone. He hasn't slept in two days. It's six o'clock in the morning, and Donald sits in an office atop Trump Tower, at the center of his empire, bending over the papers. No insomnia, no depressing thoughts. "Circumstances never spoil my sleep," Trump says, taking a sip of iced Coke. I sleep for four hours every night. I throw a ball in the air and then fall asleep like a baby. Three hours later, after putting his blonde hair in order, Trump with the usual audacity for him declares that he is going to buy for 7.5 billion dollars the main airline of the country — American Airlines. Trump’s bid is $120 per share; as a result, the price jumps from $16 to $99. The forty-three-year-old billionaire, who already owns a large stake in American Airlines, is smiling broadly. After a week, the market collapses by 190 points and Donald withdraws his offer - maybe only temporarily. Despite articles that Trump's bid was a showpiece designed to raise the price of his package, Trump says, looking into the space, "No." I want to buy one.

Because in Donald Trump's stomach, it starts to rumbling when you can buy the best.

From the unsuccessful Saudi financier Adnan Khashoggi, Donald bought his gold-and-onyx-tipped yacht for $29 million - now it is worth $100,000. Trump then paid $365 million for the Eastern Shuttle airline, and immediately renamed it Trump Shuttle; the planes revamped the interior, and the flight attendants began to flaunt in clean wool and pearls.

A year earlier, Trump bought the Plaza Hotel for $400,000 and is lovingly rebuilding the building without changing its name. The renovation is overseen by the queen of the Trump empire, Ivana, a former Olympic skier and model. Ivana runs a triplex in Trump Tower. At first there were 50 rooms in the triplex, but then the living quarters were expanded - now there are more than a hundred rooms. "More wardrobes," Ivana jokes. Trump, proud of his palace, decorated with pink marble (the money was spared), says: “I bought the whole fucking mountain!” You've never seen a color like that. The material was suggested by Ivan - people look better on his background”.

The Trumps also have a country house – a mansion of 47 rooms is located on a 10-acre plot in Greenwich, Connecticut. Trump also owns the famous Mar-a-Lago estate. The estate has 118 rooms; it was built by Margery Merriweather Post, located on Palm Beach. The Trumps get to Mar-a-lago in a private Boeing 727 and a French-made military Cougar helicopter.

"Princess Trump" - the "boat" (as Trump calls it) formerly owned by Khashoggi - has become cramped. Now the princess is turned into a queen in Dutch shipyards – her total cost will exceed $ 175,000.

This luxury, despite Trump’s many charities, excites his detractors. Spy magazine, a New York-based monthly humorous outlet, gladly conducts its scabby vendetta against the Trumps, calling them nothing but “monsters from the Dickens books.” Time has published material on the decline of Atlantic City and rebukes Trump for his role in creating a new image of a city plagued by crime and divided between the super-rich and the poor. On the Upper West Side, Manhattanis lashed out at Trump for his plan to build a huge complex of buildings, Trump City (the project has a 150-meter skyscraper). Phil Donahue accuses Trump's casino of ruining gullible visitors An aide to Ed Koch, New York's outgoing mayor, called Trump "the most arrogant son of a bitch who ever walked the earth."

What can I say? Trump is young, blonde, and a billionaire.

All of these problems are of little concern to Donald. The most successful U.S. entrepreneur since the Astors, Vanderbilts, and Whitney, Donald John Trump has mastered the “art of the deal” in detail—which allows him not only to make money, but also to crush competitors.

Take Merv Griffin as an example. Griffin has acquired Trump-owned Resort International Inc. For $365,000,000, Trump, who bought the company a year earlier, cost $101,000,000. Ten months after the purchase, Griffin discovered he had bought a cat in a bag. Not only did he inherit $925,000,000 worth of hotel-casino debt, but he also suffered a $46,600,000 loss in the first half of the year. Now there are rumors of Merv's impending bankruptcy and a lawsuit he plans to file against Trump.

Donald has a lot to think about in anticipation of the opening of the entertainment complex “Taj Mahal” worth a billion dollars. There are rumors that Donald is going to build a casino in Nevada, buy Tiffany’s, NBC, the New York Daily News or the Waldorf Hotel. “I need the Waldorf,” he quips into the phone in a playful tone, “I can’t sleep without it.” What about the presidency? No, you have to go to the polls for that, and Trump doesn’t have the patience to do that. Too much to do!

The future billionaire was born in New York Queens, in the family of a simple millionaire Fred Trump, a developer who made his $20 million fortune on low- and middle-priced housing in Queens and Brooklyn.

Of the five little Trumps, only Donald showed an interest in building; he visited construction sites, accompanying his father (“who ruled us with a steel hand”), and at the same time giving an example to his younger brother Robert, demonstrating who was in charge in their 23-room house. Robert is currently vice president of the Trump Organization.

At the age of eight, little Donald took Robert’s favorite cubes and glued them into a huge skyscraper without returning them – even then Trump realized that he wanted to build in Manhattan.

Fred Trump, who endlessly talked about the importance of the ability to “make money”, considered the ever-stirred Donald “wild and barefoot”. His father sent Donald to the New York Military Academy in Cornwall-upon-Hudson; some argue that this is what instilled in Trump the inferiority complex that pushed him to his future rise. Donald spent two more years at Fordham University and two more years at the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. Then for several years he was engaged in the sale of real estate in the middle price category - and at the age of 28 showed himself. Having carefully studied the problems facing Manhattan, Donald saw his chance in the bankruptcy of Penn Central Railroad and bought from the company the railway stations that stood on the banks of the Hudson. It now houses the New York Exhibition Complex and the Commodore Hotel, recently renamed the Grand Hyatt.

Donald not only managed to convince banks to give him loans worth $80,000, but also persuaded officials to give him a tax rebate for another $120 million.

It is persuasiveness, the art of self-promotion and arrogance that formed the basis of the style in which Trump conducts business; at the same time, it is characterized by careful and meticulous administration.

In 1979, at the age of 33, Donald bought a Bonwit Teller store on Fifth Avenue for $20,000,000, received a tax rebate of $140,000—and three years later built the Trump Tower, a 68-story beauty with a six-story atrium. Up to one hundred thousand people visit the building every day; Johnny Carson and Steven Spielberg live here.

With a fortune his father could never have dreamed of — $900 million in cash, $50 million in weekly income from hotels and casinos, and $3.7 billion in property — Trump has set about building a reputation.

As his boastful advertising slogan puts it, "Everything works for Trump today." Donald owns two apartment complexes — Trump Park and Trump Plaza; construction of Trump Palace in Miami is nearing completion; Trump Castle and the Taj Mahal complex stand in Atlantic City; Trump’s book Trump: The Art of the Deal, written with Tony Schwartz, has been at the top of the New York Times bestseller list for longer than any other business book since Lee Iacocca’s book. Trump released a board game (of course, called Trump: The Game; the game failed). His TV game show, called Trump Card, will soon start airing on television. Donald owns the Tour de Trump bicycle race (the billionaire notes that the name still sounds better than the Tour de Jersey). So you see the big picture, right?

“Acuracy is my most valuable trait,” Donald says, “I know what people want and what they will buy.”

Trump managed to attend the 1976 Olympics in Montreal, marry Ivana Zelnichkova (who vowed to look 29 years old all her life) and have three children - Donald Jr. (12 years old), Ivanka (8 years old) and Eric (6 years old).

For all Trump's luck, the family ran into trouble. The Trump sisters made careers - Marianne became a federal judge in New Jersey, and Elizabeth entered the leadership of Chase Manhattan. But Donald's older brother, Fred, hated real estate work, became a pilot, started drinking and in 1981 died of alcoholism at the age of 43.

Trump took a heavy toll on a helicopter crash last October that killed three of his key employees. Trump himself changed his mind at the last minute to fly with them, deciding he was too busy. “I never thought,” Trump told me today, “I never thought the death of strangers would affect me that much.” This is a huge loss.”

“I work, I don’t worry and I try to protect myself. But in the end, we will all go to (hopefully) a better world, Donald says with fatalism.

To assess the world in which Trump lives now, we sent Glenn Plaskin, a prominent publicist and journalist for an interview. The interview took a long time to prepare - it broke down twice. Plasky finally managed to negotiate with Trump and spoke to him several times over the course of 16 weeks.

That's what he writes.

The first time we spoke was at Trump Tower. I was carefully examined by high-ranking guards and I entered the office. Trump fell apart in a chair at the table; he slouched ridiculously and cut his nails. "In this position I think best," he said dispassionately.

In our next meetings, I noticed that I like trying to catch him off guard by changing the subject quickly. He often got away with memorized answers, but we spent quite a lot of time together and often touched on really interesting topics. When I asked him how he felt about abortion, he frowned and asked me to turn off the recording. He didn't have any particular opinion about abortion - do I have one? At that moment, he seemed like a human being.

Trump’s assistant, Norma Fordner, watched the decoration of his office, which gave a very high-quality vaudeville. She then hung on the walls of new magazine covers in gold frames, then brought cheesecakes, then dragged a stuffed skunk into the office. While talking to me, Trump sometimes answered the phone, but he never spoke in front of me for more than a couple of minutes. The phone conversation he invariably ended: "OK baby, you're the best." Sometimes Rona Graff, Donald's secretary, would bring him pieces of yellow paper that would write down the names of those who wanted to talk to him. Sometimes Trump urgently wanted to talk at lunch, standing on the verge of ruin, Adnan Kashiggy; sometimes the meeting was asked by another owner of the hotel chain, who wanted to sell Donald a couple of buildings. When the Duchess of York called to lend her a new helicopter and Don Johnson asked him for a huge yacht, I realized that my head was spinning.

Hiding from everyone, we began our first conversation in the skies over the East River, sitting in a Darth Vader armor-colored helicopter. Trump sat in an armchair upholstered in dark gray skin and boasted good-naturedly to me about his empire stretching right below us.

You know what you rarely do. Let's play the game. Trump Tower is...?

Best apartment complex in the world.

Taj Mahal. In Atlantic City will become... ?

The best casino hotel in the world.

TRUMP SHUTTLE WILL...?

The best airlines between Washington and Boston.

Your house is for sale...?

Best of all. Apartments in the Tower and Trump Park occupy 70% of the list of the most sought-after housing in New York.

Why?

For one simple reason: people know that they are buying a house in a building that they have spared no money on; that has used the best materials; that stands in the best place in the city. Many European and Japanese investors tell their subordinates to buy apartments only in Trump buildings. A Japanese investor just paid me $20 million for seven apartments he turned into one.

Good. But we are at the beginning of a new decade. What will you say to someone who calls you the showy, self-indulgent, and monstrous symbol of the '80s?

Rich people don’t often like me, but hard workers love me: they know that I worked hard and built everything myself, not inherited from my father. I've accomplished all this myself. I'll manage what I get as I want.

At the present level of poverty, are you not ashamed to put dust in your eyes with your wealth?

People have and will always show their wealth. Then comes the crisis that is always inevitable. I'll tell you this: flaunting wealth is good. People see that success is real. People see how worth living. The Dynasty series showed that to everyone. It is very important that people want to succeed. And the only way to do that is to see someone else succeed.

And you, comfortably housed in 118 rooms in Palm Beach...

People understand that this Florida mansion is part of my business. I don't often live there. A one-bedroom apartment is enough for me.

All right.

I'm serious. All these houses, planes and yachts are just investments. I paid $29 million for Kashoggi's yacht; in two years I'll sell it for $100 and buy a bigger one.

Why do you need more boats?

No way. But the Kashoggi yacht went up in value precisely because I was selling it. The new yacht, believe it or not, will be even more luxurious and will draw attention to my buildings in Atlantic City.

So what attracts you to this luxury?

My casinos are luxurious because they are expected to. I'm not going to put IBM in the Trump Castle lobby. Luxury works for Atlantic City, although we have restored the Plaza Hotel to its original state, made elegant, as in 1907. But I don't demand luxury everywhere. For residential buildings, just shine is enough. "Glitter" is just below "luxury."

So what is this yacht, this tower, all this casino for you?

The set for the show.

For what show?

The show is called “Trump” and all tickets are sold out. I’ve always loved doing it, and I still do, and I think most people are interested in seeing it.



Do you think haters are jealous of you?

Whatever they think, most people are interested in looking at me.

Calvin Klein, who does not have a share of your condition, often said that he felt guilty for his wealth. And you?

It doesn’t paralyze me, but yes, I feel something like that.

Not much like that.

I feel some guilt. I live well, I like to live this way, and I know that many people live much worse. I have a conscience. I set up a charity fund; I donate large sums. I think people respect that in me. I built this company myself, and the workers understand that. But rich people don't like me; they'd like to have it all for themselves.

Do you think you're greedy?

I don't think I'm greedy. If I were, I wouldn't give a penny. I run a Wallman Ring skating rink in New York with my own money; I gave out all the royalties for the book. Every year I give millions to charity. If I were greedy...

How is Leona Helmsley, the Queen of Hoteliers, recently found guilty?

Yeah, like Leona Helmsley. This is a vicious, terrible woman - she systematically tramples Helmsley's name into the mud. I know her very well; only Harry knows her better. If there's anything to accuse Harry of, it's that he let her do too much.

When I was 20, Harry was a big man in this town. I was driving around Manhattan one day, saw him on the corner, stopped, introduced myself, and offered him a ride. I parked on the left side of the street, traffic was on the right, so he asked me to get out of the car so he could go left. I thought, "Conservative man." He would never evade taxes himself. But Leona kept pulling and pulling. He had all that money in his pocket, believe me.

Leona, by the way, is not the best businessman - she is a terrible businessman. She sold me the St. Moritz Hotel a couple of years ago, and I've since made over a hundred million dollars. She kept this hotel terrible. She put the whole women's equality movement aside fifty years ago. She's monstrous - I think being her husband is hell on earth.

And your wife, Ivana, keeps the Plaza great, right?

I told Ivana, "If Leona does something, do the opposite." [Laughs] "Treat people well." She's good enough.

You think Leona's just greedy?

No, it's not easy. She's crazy. Leona Helmsley is just a bad person. She treats subordinates worse than anyone I know. I know pretty tough people.

What do you do to maintain good relations with subordinates?

Every morning I walk through the atrium in the Tower. Get in there. Everything's fine, everything's shining. I'm going down there and I'm always doing good work. I want everything to look perfect. I'm involved in everything. I am friends with the porter and maids at the Plaza and Grand Hyatt.

Some people would ask me why I talk to the housekeeper and the maids. I couldn't believe it. These are the people on whom everything is held. And if they like me, they work better ... and I pay them well.

You've recently lost valuable employees in an accident.

Yeah. I didn't just lose the smartest people, the key people at the company -- I lost friends, I couldn't believe it. At first I was shocked, called their wives, kept doing something. My optimism has diminished. I never thought the death of strangers would affect me so much.

What did you think when the first shock happened?

[Silences] It's a huge loss. I was pissed that they were flying nowhere. There was a press conference about a small boxing match. I told them not to fly, but they wanted to. You gave your life for that little thing. It was hard for me. [Silences]

What do you think of the rich in general?

Rich people can survive. By nature, they are divided into those who inherited their wealth and those who made it themselves. Those who inherit are usually rather timid, afraid of losing what they have. Who's blaming them? And some people take risks and either make more money or go broke.

How's Dead Griffin? After his company acquired from you Resorts International, the bankroll is thundering. What happened?

Merv is a good guy, I recently met him; both were judges at the Miss America pageant after we made the deal. I don't want to make fun of him, but before he bought Resorts, he was telling everyone what a good deal he did and how Trump flew.

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Trump and Griffin

But you didn't fly.

Let's just say he failed to over-trump Trump. He has more debt now. But he's very effective and he's got great PR. Business Week published an article titled “Donald Will Teach Merv the Art of Dealing.” I got angry then. Once again, he became angry when People and Time magazines, without even knowing anything, wrote that Merv had beaten Donald. Can you imagine? We didn't look at the situation at all. They just listened to his PR guys. Now they know the truth and are already asking questions for another article or corrections. I told them, "Just forget, it doesn't matter."

What do you feel about closing deals?

I like to make things up. I do what I do for pleasure. And I hope no one does it better than me. A good deal is beautiful. This is my canvas. And I like working with him.

I love the challenge and I love to tell the story of the miner's son. At first, the miner fell ill with a “black lung”. Then his son. And then his son. If I were a mining son, I'd get out of the fucking mine. But most lack imagination — or something — and they don’t get out of their mine. They don't have a spark.

What?

Opportunities to become an entrepreneur, an athlete, a good writer. You were either born with it or you weren't. And this talent is either perfected, perfected, or forgotten. On his birthday, Jack Nicklaus was already talented enough to play golf.

You're obviously self-confident. How do you use this in your business?

I believe in the power of positive thinking, but I also believe in the power of negative thinking. You have to be prepared for the worst. If I make a deal, I want to know what the worst case scenario is. I look at things positively, but I am, unfortunately, cynical. And if everything goes to hell, what am I going to do? Do I want to be in this position? If I don't want to, I'm not making a deal. I prefer to think about the consequences of failure – the consequences of success will take care of themselves. And if the deal works, the only question is how much I get.

How far are you ready to go in conflict with a competitor?

I will demand everything I can get. In business, you have to push people almost to the breaking point, but not breaking them; you have to bring them to the clinch, but not breaking them. It's a sign of a good businessman. The bad will push people after the break.

What if you pushed and the deal failed?

So I pushed too hard. I made a mistake. But I don't do them. I push until the right moment and I get more out of the deal than the other side.

Another aspect of your business talent is attitude to the press. You have managed to crush a documentary film that exposes you in an unsightly light paid for by your ultimate enemy. Leonard Stearn. Do you think you defeated him?

Totally. Total victory, yes. But I don't want to talk too much about triumph or defeat.

That sounds great. But you know that you are avenging those who attacked you.

I think I'm honest in business, not cruel. But if someone tries to play dishonestly against me, I fight back more fiercely than any other person. If someone tries to hurt you or your family, you have every right to fight back.

You hate Stearn?

Nope. I'm not interested in Stern. But he doesn't love me, doesn't love me enough to spend a million on a documentary.

You have many enemies in New York. Among them is a group that wants to prevent you from building Trump City in Hudson, where you are going to build the highest building in the world. And they think you'll ruin the West Side and overload the area. What will you say?

First, in the '40s, more people lived on the West Side than they do today. Few people understand that. Second, Trump City will be an architectural masterpiece. Third, the city needs taxes, new housing and new stores that will generate billions of new revenues. But this band [West Pride] is up against it at every turn.

They fight for the fight itself. I truly believe that if I offered to split the park into 80 acres, they would fight that. They selfishly hold on to what they have and don’t want to share it with anyone. And we need a new Rockefeller Center, especially since most of the old one is bought by Mitsubishi.

Among other things, West Pride claims that your building will cast a huge shadow over the entire West Side, cover the sun and give birth to the area.

[Angry] God, all buildings cast shadows! That's what I want this building to do. That's what I want. I don’t want it to merge with the environment so that it doesn’t stand out. It’s like getting a haircut and asking the barber to cut it so it’s invisible. I'm competing against New Jersey, a state that sucks blood out of New York. They beat us. Trump City will take away their trump card of buildings on the coast. There will be nothing comparable to Trump City in New York!

Are you going to build anything without looking at it?

I will, but maybe not now. I'll wait until the city gets worse - every city experiences ups and downs. If I had tried to build Trump City in 1975, I would have been given absolutely everything - the city was at the bottom. I can stop construction, wait for interest rates to go up, and everybody wants Trump City right away.

You often repeat that the key to your success is that you are both a good business and a good manager. Why?

I've seen great businessmen go broke not knowing how to manage what they've acquired. Take at least [the Saudi financier under investigation] Kashoggi. He made great deals, but he still lost. Time will tell if Merv knows how to manage what he got. He has to learn that.

You grew up in Queens. They say about your father that he was a cruel and powerful man. Some people assume that your father has instilled in you an acute sense of incompleteness. Really?

A hundred percent wrong. My father always accepted me. He adored Donald Trump and I always knew that. But I really wanted to prove to my dad and everyone else that I could succeed on my own.

You've often said that your father made you work as a teenager and taught you how to value a dollar.

My father never forced me to work. I myself enjoyed working in the summer. I don’t understand kids who sit at home and watch TV all day. Don't they want to fight? My work is in my blood.

But your father was a fucking son of a bitch, wasn't he?

He was a strong and strict father, did not tolerate stupidity, but never beat me. He never threatened. He ruled by example, not by scourge. And he never tried to intimidate me.

Your older brother, Fred, who died of a heart attack caused by alcoholism, did he have a worse time with his father?

The same treatment affects different children differently. Competitiveness, which was the norm in our family, was not suitable for Fred. It was difficult for him in such conditions, and that was what brought him down.

I was very close to him and very saddened by his death. One of the hardest moments of my life...

What have you learned from this experience?

[Pause] I've never been asked that before. His death affected everything that happened after... I always think I didn't really thank him. He was the first of the Trump brothers, and I subconsciously learned from him.

What did you learn?

I’ve seen people use Fred all the time; I’ve learned that you should always be on your guard, and he doesn’t. He did not think about the reasons for this attitude, which is one of the most important mistakes in life. People are too trusting. I'm a very distrustful person. I constantly study people closely, automatically; I live that way, whether it is good or bad.

Why?

I am very skeptical of people; it is a consequence of the instinct of self-preservation. I think it’s about people, unfortunately, only themselves. Now it is very useful for many to love me. But if things go wrong, will the phones stop ringing, will those who kiss my ass disappear?

I like to test friendship for strength. Everything in life is a psychological game for me, a series of problems that you either solve or you don’t. I constantly test the strength of those who work for me.

What kind of image?

I send people to customers who test them for honesty, ask them to cheat me, and so on. I was often surprised when people I was sure would agree to suddenly refused, and people who should have said no would agree. Nothing is certain until you check it out; people are very curious. For me, friendship is only tested by difficult times.

I instinctively don’t trust many people. I don’t see it as a disadvantage, on the contrary.
The magazine wouldn't be interviewing me if I wasn't a cynic. Fred taught me all this and I owe him a lot. He was supposed to be a happy man, but misfortune happened.

What role does your ego play when you do business and enjoy being popular?

Every successful person has a huge ego.

EVERYONE? Mother Teresa? Jesus Christ?

More than you can imagine.

And Dad's?

Sure. There's nothing wrong with that. People need ego, whole nations need it. I think our country should love itself more because we are being ripped off by our so-called allies: Japan, Germany, Saudi Arabia, South Korea. They just treat themselves better than we do — they run a huge money-making machine that stands on our backs. Their production is better than ours because we help them.

We lose 150 billion dollars every year, year after year, defending rich countries and demanding nothing in return; we defend countries that without us would have been wiped off the face of the earth in fifteen minutes. Our “allies” are making billions at our expense.

What do you think of Japan’s economic superiority?

Japan gets 70 percent of its oil from the Gulf states, relies on us to protect tankers with our ships, our helicopters, our soldiers. And then the Japanese bring the tankers home and use the oil in their factories to knock out General Motors, Chrysler, Ford. They warm us up in the open, it's a shame. Why aren't they paying us? The Japanese flatter us, tell us how great we are, bow, and then pull money out of our pockets. We lose hundreds of billions of dollars a year, and they laugh at our stupidity.

Japanese scientists develop machines and VCRs, and our scientists develop missiles with which we protect the Japanese. Why are we not being reimbursed for these expenses? The Japanese fool us into two great tricks: first they take all our money in exchange for consumer goods, and then they buy all of Manhattan with that money. And we lose twice.

Are you against selling American real estate to the Japanese?

I respect the Japanese people, I have many Japanese friends. But try to open a business in Japan, just try. It's almost impossible. The Japanese are buying up our buildings, Wall Street firms, and they cannot be stopped. Moreover, in New York, it makes no sense at all to bid for buildings - the Japanese will pay more just to bend us. They want Manhattan to belong to them.

Of course, it is not for me to complain - for me it is a direct benefit. If I sell any of my buildings, it's my turn. But it's humiliating. I pay tribute to the Japanese and their leaders, because ours are second to them.

A group of Japanese guests in New York were recently asked if there was anything they were willing to buy from the states. They answered: Towels.

They buy our towels and we buy their cars. I don't think it's profitable. They have completely outsmarted American politicians; they disrespect us simply because we do everything for free. And this, of course, is not just about the Japanese and the Europeans, the Saudis and the Kuwaitis are just trampling on us.

Are the Arabs spending a lot of money in your casino?

They're sitting down a million, two, and happy they had a great weekend. If you lost a million, you'd suffer your whole life. And they write me letters about how great they were.

You bought whole pages in a few of the largest newspapers of the country and published there not only your opinion about foreign trade of the United States, but also defended the death penalty. Why?

Because I'm scared to see the country go downhill. If we want to bring law and order back to the streets of our cities, we need the death penalty, we need strong police. After the death penalty, I received 15,000 letters of support. And ten, or more, from those who disagree.

Do you believe in the principle of an eye for an eye?

If a man or woman kills someone in cold blood, they must pay. This should be an example to everyone. No one can say that the death penalty does not stop criminals. We will either bring it back or our society will rot. It's rotting before our eyes.

You are so concerned about our perishable cities, but you can say that you do nothing to help Atlantic City - only pull out of the carmans of tourists for 50 million a week.

This is a matter for elected officials. I hate being blamed for all the problems in the world. People come to me and say, ‘Why are you letting so many people live on the streets?’ as if I were in control. I didn't run anywhere.

Why not use your influence in Atlantic City to help those in need?

Everyone has influence, but this is a government problem. I'm putting out these ads in the hope of pushing the government apart, explaining that Japan and other countries are tearing us apart.

Wait. Do you not think that, considering your situation in Atlanta, you can do something more to fight crime, corruption, what to pay for the city?

Yes, crime and prostitution are on the rise and the Atlantic City administration is breaking the law. There are many problems, no questions asked. But the huge amount of money I make at the casino goes into building housing.

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Trump's Atlantic City properties in the 90s

I run hotels. All I can do, if I think about it, is just keep the best hotels, make as much money as I can, raise as much money as I can, some of which will later go to taxes. I donate millions a year to charity. And finally, by law, I can have no influence over the government; pass a new law that allows me to do something, and I will be happy to help. I have the most amazing hotels in the world in Atlantic City. The Taj Mahal will be something incredible. And if I can push local officials, I will help my country.

We talked about building housing for the poor. Where else do you do that?

I did this with my father; I built housing for the poor and the elderly. And I'll build more. The problem is that no one writes about it.

A couple of years ago you were offered to open a luxury hotel in Moscow. Was it a good trip?

I flew there shortly after the Korean plane was shot down over Russia. So I'm flying in my plane, and my pilot says, "We're flying over the territory of the Soviet Union." And I think, "What the hell am I doing here?"

Then I look out the window and I see two Russian fighters. Then I found out they were accompanying us. I insisted that two Russian colonels fly with me, which was safer; and my pilot doesn’t speak much Russian, and I didn’t want any misunderstandings on the line of communication.

When did you arrive in Moscow, how did the negotiations go?

I said to them, You guys have a fundamental problem here. We are talking about construction, only no ownership of land can not be obtained, it belongs to the state. Who will invest in the construction of the land, which all motherly belongs to the Motherland?

They say, "No problem, Mr. Trump." We'll settle the rent issue.”

I say, "I want land, not rent."

They thought something and said, ‘Mr. Trump, we’re going to create a commission of ten people, seven of whom will be Russian and three will be your representatives.’ All conflicts will be resolved by the commission.”

And I'm like, "Fucking seven to three, are we telling each other stories or what?"

What are your impressions of the Soviet Union?

Not impressed. The whole system is a disaster. There will soon be a revolution; everything is coming to that, demonstrations, pickets. Russia has suffered and the government knows it. My complaint to Gorbachev is that he is too weak.

Do you have a hard hand like in China?

When their students came to Tiananmen, the Chinese almost failed. And then they behaved cruelly, monstrously, but they suppressed the protest by force. Here's an example of power. Our country looks weak right now. The whole world spits in us...

Why is Gorbachev weak?

I think he's dethroned - he's showing incredible weakness. Suddenly, for the first time in all this time, they started mining strikes, they went down. It will end in a revolution. Nevertheless, Gorbachev is widely praised as a remarkable politician – and we must continue to praise him for destroying the USSR. But his weakness will cost him and his cronies what they value most - their work.

In addition to construction, you have discussed potential deals with high Soviet officials. What impressions did they make on you?

In general, they are much cooler and smarter than our representatives. We have people in this country who are not stupider, but unfortunately they were not elected anywhere. We are still suffering from the loss of face under the Carter administration, with helicopters in Iran crashing into each other.

That's just Carter. Here it is taken off the treadmill, the oxygen tank is hooked. I don't want my president to be taken off the treadmill. I don’t want my president to come to Austria and fall off the ladder. Some of our presidents were complete morons. And we have to be tougher.

Tougher. Your favorite word. What do you understand by that?

Toughness is the inner willingness to defeat your opponent and do it with a smile. Hardness is a systematic victory.

Sometimes you sound like a presidential candidate.

I don't want to be president. My foundation helps a lot - and I don't chase the blue bird.

But if you chased, in what party would you feel more comfortable?

If I were elected, I would win as a Democrat, not as a Republican. Not because I am a liberal, but because I am a conservative. But the hard workers would have elected me. They like me. When I walk down the street, taxi drivers shout from the windows.

One more game: What would President Trump do first if he got into the Oval Cabinet?

Lots of things. I'd show you we're not weak. I would impose a tax on every Mercedes-Benz imported into the country on all Japanese goods. We would have great allies again.

Would you have saved all of our hostages in Lebanon?

First of all, our government told them not to go there. The man decided to work at the University of Beirut against his advice and was captured.

Is he guilty?

You can pity him, but we should not build our entire foreign policy around him. But when they killed Colonel Higgins, I would have given an immediate military response. I would pick a target that is valuable to them and tear it apart. Otherwise, I would tell the hostage-takers that they have a week to release them. And in a week, we'll start doing what we think is right. We wouldn't have captured people again, believe me. Weakness is always punishable.

Do you think George Bush is too soft?

I like Bush, I have always supported him and will support him. But I disagree with his words about a kinder, quieter America. I think that if our country becomes even kinder or quieter, it will simply disappear. I think if our foreign policy negotiations were conducted by business people like Carl Icahn or Ross Perot, we would be respected by the whole world.

What would be President Trump’s position on crime?

I see what our true values are, how people tolerate crime, how they are simply afraid to say, “I want to see the death penalty.” I want to. Where does the country go if you can't put the son of a bitch who robbed, beat, killed and threw a 93-year-old woman out of the window? Where is this country going?

What is President Trump’s view of a future world in the far future?

I think about the future, but I cannot describe it. It could be. But I often think about nuclear war.

Nuclear War?

I've always thought about it. Nuclear war is an important element in my picture of the world. This is the greatest possible catastrophe, the greatest threat to the world – and no one talks about its details. It’s like a disease – no one believes they’ll get sick until they get sick. Nobody wants to talk about it. I think the greatest stupidity is people’s belief that there will be no nuclear war because everyone knows how destructive it will be. And that's total bullshit.

And what, there are people in Trump’s office who think that way?

Except at the bottom. I would never hire a man who thinks that because he doesn’t have enough brains. He lives in a fabulous world. It's like thinking the Titanic can't sink. Too many countries have nuclear weapons; no one knows where they are going or what button they will launch.

The bomb Truman dropped on Hiroshima is a toy compared to modern ones. A thousand missiles are aimed at us right now, and no one even knows if they will arrive. No one's really tested them. These devils cannot paint the wall, and we give them missiles aimed at Moscow. What if they don't go to Moscow? What if our computers don't work? Nobody knows if the equipment is working, and I’ve read a couple of reports and they say there’s a possibility that the equipment may not work. It's a total mess.

And what would President Trump do about it?

He would believe in superior military power. He wouldn't trust anyone. He wouldn't trust the Russians; he wouldn't trust our allies; he'd have a huge arsenal, he'd perfect it and he'd understand how things work. The problem is that we protect the richest countries of the Earth for free. The whole world laughs as we defend Japan.

Wait. If you think your society is dividing your views and your work, why would you not run for president?

I would have done better, or at least not worse. But I hope George W. Bush does his best.

Do you absolutely not want to be president?

I don't want to be president. I'm a hundred percent sure of that. I'll only change my mind if I see the country go to hell.

Let's talk about more earthy stuff. One of your most disliked politicians is Ed Koch, mayor of New York. You had a great time: he teased you with "bad" and you called him "crazy." How do you think he lost the election?

He lost people, he got proud. Not only did he abandon his friends, but he was foolish in criticizing them. Corruption is only part of his problem. He became disgusting, angry, very cruel. He betrayed very quickly.

When his friends, Bess Myerson and others, got into trouble, he would drop them without even figuring out what had happened. He only thinks about his ass, not the city. Stupid situation: The only one who didn't know his administration was falling apart was himself. Power corrupts.

pl4

Trump and Koch in 1983.

You have more power than Koch did. And that power is getting bigger. Don't worry that she'll ruin you too?

I think sometimes power corrupts - the word "sometimes" is important here.

Again, local affairs. You have been informed that you wanted to become the owner of a local basketball team in the New Baseball League, notwithstanding that you faced problems as the owner of the New Jersey Generals, while the US Football League was alive.

That's not true anymore. I'm not interested in that anymore. Sport is a lousy business. If an athlete is injured or performs poorly, he still requires money; and if he has performed better than usual, he immediately requires a review of the contract. I prefer boxing.

Clean and straight sports. As one of Mike Tyson's promoters, what can you say about him?

I know Mike better than anyone; I have an opinion of his virtues and his vices. But it's too early to talk about it. I know what he wants. And no, I don't blame Don King for signing Tyson to work for Don King.

You knew him when he was married to Robin Givens, right?

Yeah. I laughed when she first said she didn’t want any money from him and then sued him. Mike won the case. It all ended when she decided to go to court and file for divorce. This is usually the case with champions – everyone likes the champion.

How's your marriage?

Great. Ivana is a very kind and good woman. I think she has strong instincts and the drive of a good manager. She is a perfectionist and a perfectionist.

And as wives, not as managers?

I don't discuss my personal life... She is a wonderful mother, a good woman who knows her business.

What did you feel when Jose Torres wrote his book, partly published in the magazine, about Tyson's life? That he beats women? His progress?

It’s a shame that all the great fighters in history have something like this. And politicians, if you think about it. We live in an era where there are no boundaries left, which is very bad for the country. We're going to lose talented people just because someone likes to look at beautiful girls or guys.

A man's adventures have nothing to do with his work - but when someone writes about it, we lose a good man and the country gets worse. I know politicians who love women and don’t want anyone to know, or they’ll lose their voices. Okay? And if we're going in that direction, we have problems.

What is it for you? Is he Monogamen?

I don't have to answer that question. I never discuss my wife - one of the advantages of not being a politician. My marriage is my personal affair and it will remain so.

But you like flirting?

I think any man likes it, and if he says otherwise, he's either lying or a politician who wants four more votes. I think everybody likes it. Especially if we are talking about those layers where there are many successful people with inflated egos. It's important. People like it when others treat them well.

You and your wife often become the target of all the cruel jokes from the side of magazines like SPY. They call you the “Vulgar Rich Man with Short Fingers.” And recently they put on the cover a very unpleasant picture of your wife. What do you think?

Ten years ago, I experienced such things much harder. And now I almost don't care.

Is that all you can say about SPY?

It's garbage.

I think you're serious about Forbes -- the magazine says that your fortune is equal to half a billion dollars. And you call it 3.7 billion. Which of these numbers is correct?

I won't say anything. Business Week and Fortune rate me more than Forbes. I know a lot of people on the Forbes list who have nothing to do there. Very inaccurate information. Malcolm Forbes seems to be belittling me. Business Week and Fortune don’t have yachts.

About Malcolm Forbes. Why didn't you accept his invitation to a party in Morocco?

I wanted to go but couldn’t because of the busy schedule.

Would you spend three million on your own party?

It was a great investment for Malcolm. He received $50 million in media attention. He needs to do that every day. Similarly, there are people who don’t understand why I’m building a yacht even more luxurious than Princess Trump. It's going to be top class, something incredible.

Let's talk about what you're interested in - buildings. New York Times architect Paul Goldberger has been unflattering about your buildings. He called them screaming, architectural narcissism.

Paul Golberger has a terrible taste. He likes absolutely failed buildings. Paul suffers from an incurable vice. How can an architectural critic have bad taste?

But he works for the Times, and so unfortunately his taste matters. That's why they're building some freaks right now. If Paul leaves the Times or someone fires him from the Times, his opinion doesn’t matter.

But it’s not just architectural critics who denounce your desire to put your name on all sides. Will you always do that?

Nope. I own the Grand Hyatt Hotel; I don’t call it the Trump Hotel. I own the Plaza, not the Trump Plaza. But from a marketing point of view, it is profitable to put your name on buildings. I'm building Trump Palace - and if I called it another, I would lose hundreds of dollars per square meter. As for the Trump Shuttle, I only own it for six months, and we already control 50% of the market in Washington, Boston and New York. Had I called it another, we would not have had such success. The Tour de Trump was originally planned to be called the Tour de Jersey. We had 473 journalists in the room for a bicycle press conference; how many would come if we called it the Tour de Jersey? It wouldn't work.

You have so many jobs, you finish so many deals, you advertise so many things - the night when all the journalists left, do you feel peace and satisfaction?

I am too superstitious to be satisfied. I try not to get stuck thinking about the past. People who do this are quickly ruined. I'm never satisfied. Life is what you do while you wait for death. That's pretty sad, by the way.



Life? Or death?

Both. Here we are, living 60 years, 70 or 80 years, and then we are gone. You can win, win and win, but in the end it doesn’t mean shit. But it makes sense to do all this – just to not get bored.

Agree with the inscriptions on the footballs – “Who has the most toy, he won?”

Depends on the criterion of victory. Some of my friends are incredibly rich and incredibly unhappy people. I firmly believe that successful people never feel happy because they are driven forward by dissatisfaction. I have never met a successful person who is not neurotic. It's not that bad... Controlled neurosis.

What do you have in sight?

Controlled neurosis is a huge amount of energy, a huge amount of internal discontent, which is outwardly invisible. It also helps you stay awake. I sleep four hours a day. I have friends who need 12 hours of sleep, and I always tell them I have a big head start.

And when you don't sleep at night, are you alone?

Yeah, yeah, it's hard to find someone who doesn't sleep at four in the morning.

You mentioned that you were born with a spark. Did your children inherit it?

Statistically speaking, my children have little chance. Children of successful people usually have a lot of problems. They don't have the right traits. You can't know for sure until you test them. But I'm on good terms with my kids.

Do you think they'll get it all?

I would love them to take care of my business, but 95 percent of these kids are incapable of running a big, complicated business. You need confidence, you need intelligence, you need chip. And if they don't, they won't succeed.

You have always said that you earned your empire, not inherited it. That competition and fighting made you stronger. What difficulties do your children face?

I believe in genes, I believe that even if my children don’t have a hard time, they will succeed if they have the right genes. I have a friend who is incredibly smart. But he's never been successful - he can't stand the pressure. He bought a house and suffered; the man is 40 years old, he has an IQ of 190. He called me one hundred times a day, worried about a mortgage. And I sat in my chair and I listened and I thought, "Here I bought an airline, a hotel, and I didn't lose a minute of sleep." These are lucky genes.

Will your children ever achieve what you have achieved if they have these genes?

I don't know if my kids need it. I would rather they learn not to build, but to preserve. I don’t need a great negotiator as my son, although I would certainly like things to work here without me. But I would like my son to be not a great entrepreneur, but a great manager.

My children are mentally healthy. But I often wonder what they would think when they went to Mar-a-Lago and saw the ceilings they had never seen. And when a guy asks my daughter out in a few years and comes to pick her up from Trump Tower, how will he feel when he picks her up from here and brings her to his apartment?

Knowing all this, do you take any more measures?

It's a little late. I don't think they can be sent to the newspapers. Although my son works on a yacht.

Who in history would you call your role model? Who inspires you?

I would say Winston Churchill, but... I always thought that Louis Meyer had an amazing life, that Flo Ziegfeld had an amazing life, that people like Darryl Zanuck and Harry Cohn made great and beautiful things. My dream job would be to run MGM in the 30s and 40s, before television.

In those days there was a style, a magic that no longer exists. At that time, the situation could be controlled. In those days, your best actor could be an alcoholic and no one would ever know. You could control things at a level that is now impossible.

You talk about the magic and style of the old days, but isn’t that what you’re trying to get back to New York?

Yeah, but in my business, not in show business. The Plaza Hotel is more expensive than any movie I could make. Even if I made a string of hits, I wouldn’t make a fraction of what I made from real estate. I think I’ve added a pinch of show business to what I do, and it’s helped me in my life.

Is there a construction of a new huge yacht - it is not just a surplus, but also a new act of representation?

That's how it attracts people. The yacht will be the eighth wonder of the world and will create an aura around me that attracts people. It'll cost me 200 million. But I don't need it! I'd be happy in a one-bedroom apartment. That's how I lived. In the early '70s, I lived in an apartment with a view of the pump.

If you were to start all over again, what would you do?

Good question... There is something very good in the ground. And the land itself is, in principle, real estate. If funding is properly arranged, you can not invest money at all. Publishing, movies, television – all this is much more complicated. And a little bit in the world of Rupert Murdochs, Sea Newhouses, Robert Maxwells and Punch Sulzbergers. So I'd rather go back to real estate.

What about the stock market?

It's a lottery. Real estate is something real. Brick and concrete.

Whether you regret your rather malignant statements after Black Monday Did you say that you managed to get out of the game in time, and the rest fell apart?

Nope. I wasn't gloating. Someone said I was out of the stock market and I confirmed the information. I don't know if it's talent, luck or instinct. Then I went back to the market. I think we need to deal with the cash market now. Cash is everything – I love gambling for that.

In the time of our conversations, you looked like a very pleasant and charming person - and in doing so, constantly talk about "cruelty." Are you pretending?

I think everyone has some kind of filter. I'm honest and people have been working for me for years. People rarely leave me. But if someone tries to stab me in the back, if someone tries to grab my ass, I put a lot more pressure than they tried to push me. Whoever tries to hit me will pay. Those who have already paid will not return. I don't like being beaten, I don't like being used. This, by the way, is one of the problems of our country today. We're all being used.

We're talking about you...

As I have said, I study people, and in every bargaining I estimate how cruel I must be. I can be a nice person, I can be a beast. You have to do both. You have to be strong. You have to be nice. You have to be ruthless. I don't know if you can learn all this. Either you have it or you don't. That’s why most kids can get an A in school and then achieve nothing in life.

Is there a common plan in your negotiation process, or are you improvising?

I improvise more often than people think.

You close all the new deals, make all the new money, and the central question about Donald Trump is when will it be enough?

As long as I like doing it, as long as I’m not bored, as long as I have the strength... never.