Jorge Bucay: the Main thing is to give yourself the freedom to be who you are

Famous Argentinian psychotherapist and writer Jorge Buka readers and critics call "professional Comforter" that his books really can help people cope with grief and learn to be yourself. In June, Russia came new novel Buka "Candidate". T&P met with Jorge to find out why he loves people, why the consolation does not always lead to recovery and what it really takes to be a free person.



© Timur Anikeev

— What psychological aspects affect your new novel?

I'm not a writer, I'm a psychiatrist. Although I write. A friend of mine says that anyone who writes, dreams of romance. I'm releasing a book in psychology, too, wanted to be its author. So I wrote the novel as a game. First I had to read a little bit about how to do it, because originally I had only an idea and nothing more. I didn't know how to create images of the characters, so wrote their history. Even if the novel did not appear, I already knew, for example, the people were sick as a child. I really thought I'd make a story. Soon, however, characters started to happen and it was a surprise for me. It turned out that when these writers say that the characters become alive, it's true. With me it also happened. So with the psychology of the novel relate what psychiatrist and author, can see what is going on with a person inside. And also, of course, what we are talking about the phenomenon of the mass when people begin to act, because it has been manipulated. It's a psychological change, such as changes that occur with a person under the influence of power and search power. I first wrote about Latin America, but I think it is relevant to the whole world.

— In the novel we are talking about freedom. What is freedom?

— First you need to say what it is not, right? People think freedom is to do what you want. But freedom to that has nothing to do. If it was designed so nobody would be completely free. This is not the definition of freedom, this definition of omnipotence. And freedom and omnipotence — not the same thing. Freedom is the ability to choose within the framework of the possibilities offered by reality. Ultimately it is the ability to decide "Yes" or "no". And this freedom is always undeniable. You can always say "Yes" or "no". This is true for individuals, couples, families, cities, countries and for the entire planet. You can always say "Yes" or "no".

— How was the day, when he decided to become a therapist?

— It was not day, and the whole period. My mother knew that I would become a doctor. In 40-ies and 50-ies in Argentina there was an epidemic of poliomyelitis, and during my childhood there were lots of guys who have had this disease. When I was four or five years and I saw the child in the street with the effects of polio, they used to ask mother what happened to him. Mom explained, I started to cry and couldn't stop. She tried to comfort me, but it did not work. I went into the room, hiding and crying for about fifteen minutes. My mother, who never could stop me, sat down and waited. She thought: "This boy will become a doctor because of the pain he causes someone else's pain."

When I grew up, I wanted to study medicine. I was going to be a pediatrician, but once on the faculty, I realized I couldn't stand the moments when the children, I can not help. Once I assisted during surgery — it was part of the program — and the child died. We were unable to save him. I am very grieved. I realized I can't be a good pediatrician that is a fantasy, and as an alternative I came up with child psychiatry. There, nobody dies. I began to study it, and she charmed me. She captured me. I just fell in love with psychology, psychiatry, in patients who suffer from madness. And in fact, I later learned as a psychiatrist, what any doctor is a hypochondriac who channels her anxiety into the profession. Doctors are very afraid of disease. At that moment I had a huge fear of madness, and he was one of the reasons I decided to do it. When from his fear, I began to heal, then stopped to take difficult patients and began to study more patients with neurosis — after all, he has become more neurotic than crazy. And then when I got better, I began to have healthy patients.

"A normal person — one who knows that "2×2 = 4". Crazy is a person who believes that there is a "5" or "8". He lost contact with reality. And neurotic — as you, as I'm the one who knows what "4", but it is terribly resent his"— That you are fascinated in madness?

— To understand the human soul, you need a great psychological resource. The human soul has a lot to do with thinking, and to understand the thinking means to understand the personality. On the other hand, patients with mental illness are so grateful when you help them. This incredible men and women that actually was said by a British philosopher Gilbert Chesterton, "has lost everything except his mind." In our culture crazy devalued, expelled, cernautsi. I noted that in Argentina's psychiatric Department in hospitals are always left at the end of the corridor, the toilet. But working with patients from there was wonderful. For such people, doctors do save lives. It was very interesting, I learned a lot and I think that helped a lot of people over the years that I worked in psychiatric hospitals with heavy patient, really crazy.

— You love people?

— Love is a very broad field. I think we need to talk about love in an organic way. I certainly don't love everyone like I love my children. But this difference in quantity, not in quality. The quality is the same. But with love all strongly depends on the definition. I sometimes say that every fool is the definition of love, and I don't want to be the exception. I'm as stupid as everybody else. The definition that I like most, I took Joseph Zinker. He said: "Love is the joy that I feel from the fact that the other person exists." The joy of the very existence of another person. And in this sense I am happy that there are my patients. In this sense, love between therapist and patient actually exists.



— It takes a lot of effort.

— Yes, but what else can give meaning to life? If you don't care what happens to others that will give you the meaning of life? Ultimately to me, aside from psychiatry, in everyday terms, it makes sense, too. When one was a child, my son Damian, who now also works as a psychiatrist, asked me if I loved him, I said, "Yes, you're very dear to me, I love with all my heart." Then he asked: "what for you is the difference between "cherish" and "love"? What does it mean to love? To hug, to give things?". I said no, and for the first time used the words that said to you before: if someone's well-being plays a role for you, if it's important, you love him. In this sense, is rather exhausting when you care about the well-being of all around. But without it there is no reason to live. Five minutes ago I didn't know. But today I will try to keep you tripped and fell not only because to do so naturally, but in order for you do not crashed. Love arises by itself, if it is not banned. She's nothing like the feeling of movies, when the characters run, jump on a horse... It's the stupidity of the movie. True love is the importance of your well-being for someone. This is so very true and so important that if you are near a person who is not interested, how are you doing, what were you doing in the afternoon, why something caught your attention — that someone doesn't love you. Even if he says the beautiful words and gives the most expensive things in the world, even if he swears in every way in his love. Conversely, if someone is interested in you, it is important, how are you doing, he wants to know what you like, and tries to give what you want, he loves you. Even if she says no love there, never was and never will be.

— Have you ever seen among their patients people like you?

— I've never met anyone who doesn't look like me. They are all something me remind you: someone more, someone less. But in the process of helping to identify with the person is very important. All therapists doing it.

— With readers the same?

—Of course. I often boast that I know people (laughs). But I identify myself with the characters and their stories. I never write just for others. In my books anyone who is confused — me, the one who is humiliated, — I, who was found with someone — I am lost — I am the one who is stupid, and I'm the one who understand something exactly — me too. It's all about me, about the processes that happen for me. Because I think what happens to me must happen to everyone. Similarly and conversely: when a person reads my book, he identificeret themselves with the characters. And he knows that I gave him, is not fiction.

— What should be comforting?

— Consolation? Rather, the recovery, the resolution of the problem. See, a normal person — one who knows that "2×2 = 4". Crazy is a person who believes that there is a "5" or "8". He lost contact with reality. And neurotic — as you, as I'm the one who knows what "4", but it frightens him disturbs. My condition is slowly improving, I'm learning to get angry each time less, when faced with bad things. Recovery that the consolation is not, is to never get angry. And this process is life. With someone's help or without it it improves.

— Why do we need pain?

The pain serves as a warning if something went wrong. When I studied medicine, I realized that two horrible things that the doctor needs to eliminate is pain and sadness. A patient who suffers from diabetes and whose sad because of this state his feet, finishes the amputation. The pain is indispensable. Necessary in order that we might know that something is bad. This alarm, whether it is physical or psychological pain. He warns that something may occur, even when bodily you do not worry. If the pain suddenly disappeared, you either died or got anesthesia. If you're dead, no way out, but if they gave you painkillers, and you're not paying attention, this can become a problem.

But I guess the pain is a tool for growth.

— How would you resolve the problem, if there is no pain? If you're not studying? You learn to walk by falling down. Learn to do something well when it turns bad. And if so, the pain informs you about it. On the dashboard in the car sometimes starts flashing red signal, whose appearance suggests that the oil pressure in the engine dropped. What are you doing? You stop the car and go to the service station. Her employee looking car and tells you not missing half a liter. You say, "Add oil." Five meters the signal starts to blink again. The master says: "Oil flows" — and twists the valve stronger. But ten meters later, history repeats itself. You go to the service station, and you're fed up. Although actually the worst thing you can do is disable the alarm so it wouldn't hurt. Because if you do, after 10 km you will melt the motor. Pain is a red light in your car. The worst that can happen is indifference to it.

— What do you do when you feel emotional pain?

— What I learned and what I advise others to do: look what the problem is. But if I don't know what happened, go to the doctor.

— They say that mental imbalance has to be creative. What do you think about this?

— There are things that repeat only because it is customary. Some genius really was crazy. But crazy is crazy. No more. Not a genius. What a mad genius this special ability does not mean that all crazy brilliant. And that all geniuses have to be crazy. Creative resource is arranged anarchist, and if so, it cannot be based on reason. The creative person has to go beyond the conventional structures, in order to be able to create. But to be in a world riddled with dope creative anarchy is one thing, crazy is another. Because with this world man can flirt to get in and out and he will not become crazy. Although some genius once through the border, back are unable. Van Gogh was definitely crazy, but he went mad not from creativity: this has happened before.

Nobody thinks that the madness comes from creativity. Maybe you need to be a little crazy to stay a genius — I don't know, I never was a genius. But I anyway think it's not worth paying the price. Artists who want to enter the creative trance, with alcohol or anything else, go on dangerous, even for your creative journey. I know brilliant people who didn't need no TRANS, and has known many people who every day were in a trance, but nothing is created.



— If you could give one piece of advice, who would have heard everything, what would you say?

It's difficult to give advice. I think I would say that you should do what is important to you. What makes your life better. And if not, what is important to you, you can help find where to look. I would advise to make your life absolutely, totally free. And in any case it seems to me that if freedom to you is not enough, soon there will be an area where you can apply it.

I'm a psychiatrist, so I think that the important thing is to give yourself the freedom to be who you are. And don't let anyone tell you that it would be better if you were different. To protect their right to be themselves for themselves. And then with time you will understand that it is not right — it should be. How to achieve this? You need to give yourself permission to be where you want to be, and then try to sit where you're comfortable. Permission to think what I think and not to think as another would think in your place. To say, if you want and quiet if nothing comes to mind. It's your right to give yourself this permission. Permission to feel what I feel, and at the time when it is needed. And not feel what the other felt would be in your place, and cease to feel what is expected by others. You need to give yourself permission to take risks that you decided, then and only then, when the consequences you pay. But let nobody says you can't take such risks — if you never involve your business, it's your decision. And the last thing is very important. You need to give yourself permission to go through life looking for what you want instead of to wait, when others will give it to you.

— Hard to live when know so much about people and their psyche?

Yes... But imagine what people who've never seen myself, found a mirror and looking into it. He doesn't like what he sees, he throws the mirror and breaks it. But he already knows. And nothing can be done. Knowledge cannot be reduced. If you decide to look at yourself, you're doomed to know. Provable that some people ignore things that are known to me. It is easier — but not better. But it always want to change, if only it was possible to do so. Because some things hurt more when you understand them better. But if it is true that it is not less true that the pain of others will help you learn, as we discussed earlier. So I continue to think that it is better to go this way and know more, even if it is pain too will be more. In fact, there is the famous Socratic question: you're walking down the road and see a slave who is sleeping and talking in her sleep. What he says, you know what he dreams about freedom. What you should do: leave him to sleep, to sleep he was enjoying what in fact he does not, or Wake up, though it is not very charitable, so he went back to his painful reality? Sometimes this choice is very hard to do. But each must know what you would like, if he was a slave. I'm 64 years old, and 40 years I have dedicated to to Wake people up. So in its place I would like to Wake me up. I don't want to live in a dream: when I Wake up, it takes me hope because I realize I can't achieve in real life the same.

— Where to find the light when you feel quite dark?

— From the point of view of physics darkness does not allow any light — even the fact that you need to find the light. The real darkness is absolutely incompatible with the light. So if you're in the dark, you'll follow blindly. This is bad news. But we must understand that the darkness we know is not the full darkness. And I think that this is very similar to the physical phenomenon when you walk into a dark room and can see nothing. If you stay there instead of running away, soon your eyes adjust and you begin to distinguish objects. In a dark room there's always a light that you seen in the beginning. Therefore, to find light in the dark, first of all you need to know: there is not so dark as you think because of your current understanding of the world. If you're not scared and will not run out, your eyes will begin to perceive the light that is in darkness. And with that amount of light you will be able to find a place where there's more. But you can't escape. If you run away, no way. So you need to stay. published

P. S. And remember, only by changing their consumption — together we change the world! ©

Source: theoryandpractice.ru