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All the "truth" about the effectiveness of the Soviet submarine fleet.
Always interested in historical facts about the World War II.
In the first education - Navy submarine fleet. Recently he argued with his classmate on the actions of our boat in comparison with the German. He persuaded me to the fact that the submarine fleet of Germany - the pros, we also received only the basics, the rest is in practice and perfected the art of battle - but you know, when pro fights ... 1 class this as Tszyu a kid after half-year of preparation - ie practically no chance.
Krigsmarine trained sensibly - individual approach, training went a long time - two or three years - has produced a pro, in the sea after a short period they became aces.
In the USSR taught potolkovo - given the basics, then to understand the famous battles were analyzed action. Ie weight training, and lasted, I do not remember, but something about 1 year, then the training boat, a couple of fights and get the ship. Almost all publications held that the Soviet submarine fleet has low efficiency, due to poor training. Yesterday came across an article, there is described that, in principle, on the surface.
9 photo.
The website topwar.ru/ published an article entitled "Analysis of the effectiveness of Soviet submarines in World War II»: topwar.ru/35704-analiz-effe ...
Author Platonov AV, Lurie VM
Summarized its content:
At the beginning of the article, after a brief entry posted table (bring it completely), and followed by - "... we can make some general conclusions (based on the table above comment).
First, the Soviet submarine sunk have the fewest goals per participating in combat submarine.
Second, the percentage of lost submarines of the number involved in the fighting, the Soviet Union almost two times higher than that of the other victorious countries.
Third, the number of goals for each of the sunken submarine, we lost only surpassed Japan and close to Italy. The rest of the country on this indicator surpass the Soviet Union several times. As for Japan, the end of the war going on now beating its fleet, including underwater, so comparing it with the country-winner does not correctly (!) (Does that really it be considered something to her "poor" and so we got a comment ).
Well, what can I say - do not say anything, the figures are stubborn things. If Reich Minister of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda Germany J. Goebbels somehow survives to this day, he is undoubtedly a very positive side would appreciate the article's. Platonov AV, Lurie VM, how not to appreciate a well-fabricated disinformation against the Soviet fleet and nation.
Perhaps dear readers today to reproach me say "What are you talking about, that's what dёza same figures, they prove?».
Dear readers angry, imagine you are the champions of the men's canoe, then you come to the region and country. Platonov AV, Lurie VM, and they say, but let's compare how many miles you have passed the oars and sails as passed on such ocean yacht "Polar zvezra." Yeah you just a dozen miles in a canoe, and in a thousand yachts! And then years Platonov AV, VM Lurie concludes: rowing and you badly, you're worthless and athletes, and boats you have unfinished ... and all this despite the fact that you are in class champions. < br />
Well, how? Here, too, given the numbers and all the "right" you have been rowed 10 miles yacht sail 1000. So right about you's. Platonov AV, Lurie VM.? .. It is unlikely that you will agree with this assessment, and in turn ask years. Platonov AV, Lurie VM probably this question: "You Th ... ly to ohreneli! Who compares with an ocean kayak boat? ».
Why I said that? And besides, it is impossible to compare the actions of dozens of German submarines in the Atlantic, where it is constantly going in different directions single, large-capacity ships, or poorly protected convoys to the actions of our submarines, such as the Baltic Sea, with its particular characteristics and so on
In order to give an objective analysis of Soviet and German submarines do not need to dump all together, and separately analyze every theater of war.
To compare the effectiveness of the Soviet and German submarines, I took the most difficult Theatre WA - Baltic Sea.
Over the entire period of hostilities in the Baltic Sea, we lost for various reasons, 47 submarines:
L-1, L-2, u-301, u-302, u-304, u-305, u-306, u-308, u-311, u-317, u-319, u-320, SCH- 322 u-323, u-324, u-405, u-406, u-408, u-411, C-1, C-3, C-4, C-5, C-6, C-7, C-8, C-9, C-10, C-11, C-12, M-71, M-72, M-74, M-78, M-80, M-81, M-83, M 94, M-95, M-96, M-97, M-98, M-99, M-103, "Ronis" (former Latvian), "Spidola" (former Latvian), taken Libava, "Kalev" (former Estonian);
During the period of hostilities, our submariners sank more than 70 ships and enemy transports (data on sunken courts for 1941 (20) 1944 1945. (15) given on confirmed by the German side information, and the author does not take into account the Court that there were issues Data on German losses for 1942 (35) are by Soviet sources approx.).
Total Soviet submariners CEF data sent to the bottom 124 of the enemy ship with a total tonnage 347,575 grt, 18 warships and boats, coaster and tug. 5 were damaged vessels (21,583 GRT) and a destroyer. There is no reason not to trust that data even if they are not supported by the German side. The fact that not all ships were part of the German Navy, the ships was in charge of the Air Force, at the disposal of the land forces were also private shipowners, ships German-occupied countries. While all of these mentioned categories somehow participated in the war with the Soviet Union of their losses as part of the German Navy's losses were not considered.
The death of a German U-boat, U-2
The death of a German U-boat, U-2
German losses for various reasons were: 37 submarines:
U-144, U-580, U-583, U-222, U-272, U-5, U-34, U-670, U-983, U-346, U-718, U-768, U- 345, U-854, U-7, U-1013, U-2, U-108, U-738, U-803, U-1234, U-1015, U-250, U-2331, U-547, U-80, U-479, U-416, U-2342, U-1000, U-679, U-763, U-745, U-676, U-367, U-78, U-679. (possibly available from the author of this article on the German data loss is not complete, the book Admiral V.F.Tributsa "The Baltic fight" - ch. "The waters of Bothnia," is a figure lost in the Baltic Sea for various reasons, German submarines - 65).
Rescue crews damaged by artillery fire and the sinking of a German submarine
During the period of military operations, and the Finnish, German submarines sank 14 ships and vessels:
1941.
"Vyborg" load. m / v, 3183 grt, submarine M-78, M-99 submarine, the submarine M-94;
1944
T-387, T-33 "Coral", the T-45 (b. Lift "Antikainen") MO-594, SC-62, M-107, damaged (cut off the nose), an MO-105 MO-101, number 804 (boat trawler type P), № 807 (boat trawler type P).
We perform simple calculations effectiveness:
Soviet podvodniki- divide the number of sunken court on the number of dead Submarine: 70: 47 = 1, 5
German podvodniki- 14: 37 = 0, 38
Fighting «baby»
Thus do the calculations made based on the following conclusions: the combat effectiveness of the Baltic Sea, our submariners in 4 (!) Surpassed Germany, this is the number, and if we take in terms of tonnage is the result of a German there is a general microscopic.
Approximately the same picture is on the Black Sea and the North Sea.
Back to the article's. Platonov AV, VM Lurye they do not stop "progress" and continue to pour their streams of mud: To summarize the small express-analysis is necessary to recognize that, first, the effectiveness of Soviet submarines during the Second World War was one of the lowest among the belligerent states, and even especially such as the UK, USA, Germany. Second, the Soviet submarines obviously have not lived up to expectations, and invested in their funds. As an example, consider the contribution of submarines in disrupting the evacuation of the German fascist troops from the Crimea 9.04 - 05.12.44 In total for this period 11 submarines in 20 military campaigns 1 damaged vehicles. According to the reports of commanders were allegedly sunk a few goals, but there is no confirmation of this. And it is not very important, even if it was sunk by 5, 10 goals. But in April, and twenty days of May the enemy convoy spent 251! Even if each had one convoy transport it over 250 targets! A similar pattern has developed in the Baltic Sea in the last months of the war in the mass evacuation of troops and civilians from the area of Courland Peninsula and the Bay of Danzig. In the presence of tens of purposes, including tonnage, often quite arbitrary antisubmarine outposts in April-May 1945, 11 submarines sunk 11 military campaigns of all transport, mother ships and plavbatareyu.
Well, with regard to the effectiveness of this question, we examined above. Now, as for the above years Platonov AV, VM Lurye examples "did not meet expectations" of 200 ships and enemy ships involved in the evacuation and supply of German troops in the Crimea, 102 were sunk and more than 60 injured. According to Soviet figures for the Crimean operation submarines destroyed eight cargo ships and five escort ships, damaged two transport and warship. Really not much here at the time finally agreed to the above named gg. However, let's first look at the reasons for which years. Platonov AV, VM Lurye They say no word.
All German convoys left in the sea at night and the dark time to pass the position of our submarines to convoys were mainly used high-speed landing barges of which submarines could not keep up, and that due to its high speed and small size is easily evaded issued torpedoes if Also in the convoy was part of a large convoy of trucks is a usually had a strong outposts, besides the convoys trying to cuddle as close as possible to the shore that is walking in shallow water. Thus poor results are explained by objective reasons. And not way do not indicate poor training of crews of our submarines. What we do not ambiguous hints. Now what concerns the actions submarines of the Baltic fleet in 1945's. Platonov AV, VM Lurye wrote reproachfully "With tens of purposes, including tonnage, often quite arbitrary antisubmarine outposts in April-May 1945, 11 submarines sunk 11 military campaigns of all transport, mother ships and plavbatareyu».
A lot or a little? As they say everything is relative. For example, the effectiveness of the submarines of the Baltic Fleet will take action, according to the above mentioned years., Better and generally better in all aspects of German submarines, is applied to the newest completely (electric torpedoes) against internal Soviet convoys in the North theater (ie. k. In the Baltic major Soviet convoy during this period was approx.) for greater reliability for 1944 and 1945.
During this period of inner northern communications have been hundreds of convoys and individual vessels. What were the losses suffered?
5 transport vessels ("Marina Raskova" "Revolution", "Workers" "Tbilisi" "Onega"), hydrographic vessel "Nord", the destroyer "activity", 5 minesweepers ("T-118" and "T-114" T 120 (b. AM-147 "Asseyl"), T-107 (b. FV301), T-883 (6 / № 37, b. RT-45 "Dvina"), 3 BW (BW-224, BW-229 , BO-230). Total: 15 vessels.
Now let's see what the Germans suffered losses (only on verified data of the German side) in the Baltic Sea for 1944 and 1945.
12 transport ships, two submarines mother ship, a tanker, two destroyers, submarines U-367 (54 ° 25 'N 19 ° 49' E, mine submarine L-21). Total: 18 vessels.
That's good here "tailored" lie about "... deficiencies Performance .." Soviet submarines and poor crew training - "... lies the main gauge the impact of national submarine fleet - Man ..." gg Platonov AV, VM Lurye It disappeared as the coating of dirt under the pressure of clean water.
And I want to note that if we believe this and similar masters it turns out that we have fought some untrained mediocrity, armed with hoes and axes at the best flint rifles. And the Germans are cool guys, and those first-class machinery, and they themselves are clever at clever. Only one "small" does not fit Circuits and spoils all their vile nonsense. WE won our victory would have been impossible without a well-trained professionals, commanders of modern military equipment. We beat them all over and we defeated them!
Author: Sergey Fomin
I'm !!!
Abandoned German submarines.
A source.
Source:
In the first education - Navy submarine fleet. Recently he argued with his classmate on the actions of our boat in comparison with the German. He persuaded me to the fact that the submarine fleet of Germany - the pros, we also received only the basics, the rest is in practice and perfected the art of battle - but you know, when pro fights ... 1 class this as Tszyu a kid after half-year of preparation - ie practically no chance.
Krigsmarine trained sensibly - individual approach, training went a long time - two or three years - has produced a pro, in the sea after a short period they became aces.
In the USSR taught potolkovo - given the basics, then to understand the famous battles were analyzed action. Ie weight training, and lasted, I do not remember, but something about 1 year, then the training boat, a couple of fights and get the ship. Almost all publications held that the Soviet submarine fleet has low efficiency, due to poor training. Yesterday came across an article, there is described that, in principle, on the surface.
9 photo.
The website topwar.ru/ published an article entitled "Analysis of the effectiveness of Soviet submarines in World War II»: topwar.ru/35704-analiz-effe ...
Author Platonov AV, Lurie VM
Summarized its content:
At the beginning of the article, after a brief entry posted table (bring it completely), and followed by - "... we can make some general conclusions (based on the table above comment).
First, the Soviet submarine sunk have the fewest goals per participating in combat submarine.
Second, the percentage of lost submarines of the number involved in the fighting, the Soviet Union almost two times higher than that of the other victorious countries.
Third, the number of goals for each of the sunken submarine, we lost only surpassed Japan and close to Italy. The rest of the country on this indicator surpass the Soviet Union several times. As for Japan, the end of the war going on now beating its fleet, including underwater, so comparing it with the country-winner does not correctly (!) (Does that really it be considered something to her "poor" and so we got a comment ).
Well, what can I say - do not say anything, the figures are stubborn things. If Reich Minister of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda Germany J. Goebbels somehow survives to this day, he is undoubtedly a very positive side would appreciate the article's. Platonov AV, Lurie VM, how not to appreciate a well-fabricated disinformation against the Soviet fleet and nation.
Perhaps dear readers today to reproach me say "What are you talking about, that's what dёza same figures, they prove?».
Dear readers angry, imagine you are the champions of the men's canoe, then you come to the region and country. Platonov AV, Lurie VM, and they say, but let's compare how many miles you have passed the oars and sails as passed on such ocean yacht "Polar zvezra." Yeah you just a dozen miles in a canoe, and in a thousand yachts! And then years Platonov AV, VM Lurie concludes: rowing and you badly, you're worthless and athletes, and boats you have unfinished ... and all this despite the fact that you are in class champions. < br />
Well, how? Here, too, given the numbers and all the "right" you have been rowed 10 miles yacht sail 1000. So right about you's. Platonov AV, Lurie VM.? .. It is unlikely that you will agree with this assessment, and in turn ask years. Platonov AV, Lurie VM probably this question: "You Th ... ly to ohreneli! Who compares with an ocean kayak boat? ».
Why I said that? And besides, it is impossible to compare the actions of dozens of German submarines in the Atlantic, where it is constantly going in different directions single, large-capacity ships, or poorly protected convoys to the actions of our submarines, such as the Baltic Sea, with its particular characteristics and so on
In order to give an objective analysis of Soviet and German submarines do not need to dump all together, and separately analyze every theater of war.
To compare the effectiveness of the Soviet and German submarines, I took the most difficult Theatre WA - Baltic Sea.
Over the entire period of hostilities in the Baltic Sea, we lost for various reasons, 47 submarines:
L-1, L-2, u-301, u-302, u-304, u-305, u-306, u-308, u-311, u-317, u-319, u-320, SCH- 322 u-323, u-324, u-405, u-406, u-408, u-411, C-1, C-3, C-4, C-5, C-6, C-7, C-8, C-9, C-10, C-11, C-12, M-71, M-72, M-74, M-78, M-80, M-81, M-83, M 94, M-95, M-96, M-97, M-98, M-99, M-103, "Ronis" (former Latvian), "Spidola" (former Latvian), taken Libava, "Kalev" (former Estonian);
During the period of hostilities, our submariners sank more than 70 ships and enemy transports (data on sunken courts for 1941 (20) 1944 1945. (15) given on confirmed by the German side information, and the author does not take into account the Court that there were issues Data on German losses for 1942 (35) are by Soviet sources approx.).
Total Soviet submariners CEF data sent to the bottom 124 of the enemy ship with a total tonnage 347,575 grt, 18 warships and boats, coaster and tug. 5 were damaged vessels (21,583 GRT) and a destroyer. There is no reason not to trust that data even if they are not supported by the German side. The fact that not all ships were part of the German Navy, the ships was in charge of the Air Force, at the disposal of the land forces were also private shipowners, ships German-occupied countries. While all of these mentioned categories somehow participated in the war with the Soviet Union of their losses as part of the German Navy's losses were not considered.
The death of a German U-boat, U-2
The death of a German U-boat, U-2
German losses for various reasons were: 37 submarines:
U-144, U-580, U-583, U-222, U-272, U-5, U-34, U-670, U-983, U-346, U-718, U-768, U- 345, U-854, U-7, U-1013, U-2, U-108, U-738, U-803, U-1234, U-1015, U-250, U-2331, U-547, U-80, U-479, U-416, U-2342, U-1000, U-679, U-763, U-745, U-676, U-367, U-78, U-679. (possibly available from the author of this article on the German data loss is not complete, the book Admiral V.F.Tributsa "The Baltic fight" - ch. "The waters of Bothnia," is a figure lost in the Baltic Sea for various reasons, German submarines - 65).
Rescue crews damaged by artillery fire and the sinking of a German submarine
During the period of military operations, and the Finnish, German submarines sank 14 ships and vessels:
1941.
"Vyborg" load. m / v, 3183 grt, submarine M-78, M-99 submarine, the submarine M-94;
1944
T-387, T-33 "Coral", the T-45 (b. Lift "Antikainen") MO-594, SC-62, M-107, damaged (cut off the nose), an MO-105 MO-101, number 804 (boat trawler type P), № 807 (boat trawler type P).
We perform simple calculations effectiveness:
Soviet podvodniki- divide the number of sunken court on the number of dead Submarine: 70: 47 = 1, 5
German podvodniki- 14: 37 = 0, 38
Fighting «baby»
Thus do the calculations made based on the following conclusions: the combat effectiveness of the Baltic Sea, our submariners in 4 (!) Surpassed Germany, this is the number, and if we take in terms of tonnage is the result of a German there is a general microscopic.
Approximately the same picture is on the Black Sea and the North Sea.
Back to the article's. Platonov AV, VM Lurye they do not stop "progress" and continue to pour their streams of mud: To summarize the small express-analysis is necessary to recognize that, first, the effectiveness of Soviet submarines during the Second World War was one of the lowest among the belligerent states, and even especially such as the UK, USA, Germany. Second, the Soviet submarines obviously have not lived up to expectations, and invested in their funds. As an example, consider the contribution of submarines in disrupting the evacuation of the German fascist troops from the Crimea 9.04 - 05.12.44 In total for this period 11 submarines in 20 military campaigns 1 damaged vehicles. According to the reports of commanders were allegedly sunk a few goals, but there is no confirmation of this. And it is not very important, even if it was sunk by 5, 10 goals. But in April, and twenty days of May the enemy convoy spent 251! Even if each had one convoy transport it over 250 targets! A similar pattern has developed in the Baltic Sea in the last months of the war in the mass evacuation of troops and civilians from the area of Courland Peninsula and the Bay of Danzig. In the presence of tens of purposes, including tonnage, often quite arbitrary antisubmarine outposts in April-May 1945, 11 submarines sunk 11 military campaigns of all transport, mother ships and plavbatareyu.
Well, with regard to the effectiveness of this question, we examined above. Now, as for the above years Platonov AV, VM Lurye examples "did not meet expectations" of 200 ships and enemy ships involved in the evacuation and supply of German troops in the Crimea, 102 were sunk and more than 60 injured. According to Soviet figures for the Crimean operation submarines destroyed eight cargo ships and five escort ships, damaged two transport and warship. Really not much here at the time finally agreed to the above named gg. However, let's first look at the reasons for which years. Platonov AV, VM Lurye They say no word.
All German convoys left in the sea at night and the dark time to pass the position of our submarines to convoys were mainly used high-speed landing barges of which submarines could not keep up, and that due to its high speed and small size is easily evaded issued torpedoes if Also in the convoy was part of a large convoy of trucks is a usually had a strong outposts, besides the convoys trying to cuddle as close as possible to the shore that is walking in shallow water. Thus poor results are explained by objective reasons. And not way do not indicate poor training of crews of our submarines. What we do not ambiguous hints. Now what concerns the actions submarines of the Baltic fleet in 1945's. Platonov AV, VM Lurye wrote reproachfully "With tens of purposes, including tonnage, often quite arbitrary antisubmarine outposts in April-May 1945, 11 submarines sunk 11 military campaigns of all transport, mother ships and plavbatareyu».
A lot or a little? As they say everything is relative. For example, the effectiveness of the submarines of the Baltic Fleet will take action, according to the above mentioned years., Better and generally better in all aspects of German submarines, is applied to the newest completely (electric torpedoes) against internal Soviet convoys in the North theater (ie. k. In the Baltic major Soviet convoy during this period was approx.) for greater reliability for 1944 and 1945.
During this period of inner northern communications have been hundreds of convoys and individual vessels. What were the losses suffered?
5 transport vessels ("Marina Raskova" "Revolution", "Workers" "Tbilisi" "Onega"), hydrographic vessel "Nord", the destroyer "activity", 5 minesweepers ("T-118" and "T-114" T 120 (b. AM-147 "Asseyl"), T-107 (b. FV301), T-883 (6 / № 37, b. RT-45 "Dvina"), 3 BW (BW-224, BW-229 , BO-230). Total: 15 vessels.
Now let's see what the Germans suffered losses (only on verified data of the German side) in the Baltic Sea for 1944 and 1945.
12 transport ships, two submarines mother ship, a tanker, two destroyers, submarines U-367 (54 ° 25 'N 19 ° 49' E, mine submarine L-21). Total: 18 vessels.
That's good here "tailored" lie about "... deficiencies Performance .." Soviet submarines and poor crew training - "... lies the main gauge the impact of national submarine fleet - Man ..." gg Platonov AV, VM Lurye It disappeared as the coating of dirt under the pressure of clean water.
And I want to note that if we believe this and similar masters it turns out that we have fought some untrained mediocrity, armed with hoes and axes at the best flint rifles. And the Germans are cool guys, and those first-class machinery, and they themselves are clever at clever. Only one "small" does not fit Circuits and spoils all their vile nonsense. WE won our victory would have been impossible without a well-trained professionals, commanders of modern military equipment. We beat them all over and we defeated them!
Author: Sergey Fomin
I'm !!!
Abandoned German submarines.
A source.
Source:
